Enlightenment is true knowledge itself, not
knowledge of a person, a thing or an idea. Just
knowledge itself. Enlightenment is there when there
is no imagination of the past, no imagination of
the future, not even an idea of the present.
Jeff: I can't imagine a state with no
Papaji: That is what is called bondage.
It is called suffering. It is called samsara. I
tell you, "Don't imagine. In this present moment,
don't have any imagination." When you imagine, you
are constructing images, and all images belong to
the past. Don't recall the past and don't aspire to
anything in the future. Then imagination goes. It
is no longer in the mind. Everything in the mind
comes from the past.
Jeff: When you tell me not to think of
anything, it is like telling me not to think of a
hippopotamus. The first thought that comes to mind
is, of course, a hippopotamus.
Papaji: I am not asking you to think of
anything. What I am saying is, "Don't imagine
anything that belongs to the past, the present and
the future". If you are free from all imagination,
you are also free of time, because any image will
remind you of time and keep you within its
framework. In the waking state you see images: of
persons, of things, of ideas. When you go to sleep,
all these vanish. Now, when you are sleeping, where
are all these images? Where are the people? Where
are the things?
Jeff: In sleep these things are still there.
They don't go away when I sleep.
Papaji: You are describing the dream state.
I am talking about the sleep state. I will show
you. What time do you go to sleep?
Jeff: About 11.30 at night.
Papaji: Think of this last second, the one
after 11.29 and fifty-nine seconds. What happens in
that final second? Does the sixtieth second belong
to sleep or to the waking state?
Jeff: It is a zone in between, neither here
Papaji: Now, let us talk about one second
later. The sixtieth second has already gone. Just
now you spoke of "here" and "there". Where is
"here" and "there" in that first instant of sleep?
In that instant, you reject everything: all images,
all things, all persons, all relationships. All
ideas are gone in that instant when you jump into
sleep. After that sixtieth second there is no time,
no space, no country. We are speaking now about
sleep. Now, after you have woken up, describe to me
what happened while you were asleep.
Jeff: There was dreaming.
Papaji: Not dreaming, I am talking about
sleep. Dreaming is the same state as you see here
in front of you. In dreaming, if you see that a
robber has robbed you or a tiger has pounced on
you, you experience the same fear as when you are
awake. What do you see when you sleep?
Papaji: That is the right answer. Now, why
do you reject all the things of the world, things
you like so much, merely to offer yourself up to a
Jeff: I do it because I become tired.
Papaji: To regain energy you go to the
reservoir of energy, to that Nothingness. If you
don't touch that reservoir, what will happen to
you, where will you go?
Papaji: Crazy, yes. Now I will tell you how
to stay continuously in that state of sleep, of
Nothingness, even while you are awake. I will also
tell you how to be awake while your body is asleep.
That will be good, won't it?
Let us talk about the end of that last second
before you woke up from sleep. Waking has not yet
come, and the sleep state is about to end. Now,
what is your experience in the very first moment of
the next waking state?
Jeff: My senses call me back to the
Papaji: OK. Now tell me what happened to the
experience of happiness you had while you were
sleeping? What have you brought from the hours of
Jeff: It is gone. I am relaxed,
Papaji: So, do you prefer the tension of the
waking state to the relaxation of sleep?
Jeff: I have a question about that
Papaji: If you understand what I am trying
to convey to you, you probably would not ask me
this next question. Imagine that you have just come
out of a cinema after seeing a show from ten till
five. You go home and your friends ask, "How was
it?" What will you tell them?
Jeff: "It was a beautiful show."
Papaji: You can bring the memory of those
images to them, but you brought nothing from your
sleep. Who woke up? Who woke up from that state of
happiness? You were happy while you were sleeping.
If it were not a happy state, no one would be
willing to say "Good night" to their loved ones
every evening before going to sleep. No matter how
close you are to them, you still say, "Good night,
let me sleep".
There is something superior, something higher,
something more beautiful about being alone. Ask
yourself the question: when I wake up, who wakes
When you woke up, you did not bring the impression
of the happiness that you enjoyed for six or seven
hours of dreamless sleep. You can only bring with
you impressions of the dances you saw in your
You have to create a new habit, a habit you can
create only in satsang. You were taken to the
theatre by your parents when you were a small boy.
Through such trips you learned how to describe the
impressions your senses received, and you also
learned how to enjoy them. But your parents could
not tell you or teach you about what goes on when
you are free of the senses. This can only be known
in satsang, and that is why you are here. So, I
will ask you again: when you wake up, who wakes
Jeff: It is the "I" that wakes up.
Papaji: OK. The "I" has woken up. When the
"I" wakes up, the past, the present and the future
also wake up. This means that time and space also
wake up. Along with time and space the sun wakes
up, the moon wakes up, the stars wake up, mountains
wake up, rivers wake up, forests wake up, men,
birds and animals all wake up. When the "I" wakes
up, everything else wakes up. While this "I" was
sleeping during the sleep state, everything was
quiet. If you don't touch the "I" which woke up,
you will experience the happiness of sleep while
you are awake. Do it for one single second, half of
a single second, a quarter of a single second.
Don't touch the "I". The "I" is something that we
can well afford to be without. Don't touch the "I"
and tell me if you are not sleeping.
Jeff: That is right. In that instant,
everything is like a dream.
Papaji: This is called waking while sleeping
and sleeping while awake. You are always in
happiness, always awake. This awakening is called
Knowledge, Freedom, Truth. Don't touch the names,
though. Get rid of all the words that you have so
far heard from any quarter. And you will see who
you really are.
Now, don't sleep!
Jeff: Papaji, I live next door to a car
repair shop by your house. Sometimes I feel that my
only impediment to spiritual progress is the racket
of the mechanics banging on the cars. How can we
remain quiet when the senses are continually
drinking in the environment? After all, that's
Papaji: When a child is learning how to
walk, his parents give him walking aids. When he
grows up and learns how to walk independently, he
throws them away. So, in the beginning, if you find
that you are disturbed when you are meditating, it
will be better to change the environment. I will
give you the following advice. When you choose a
house or an environment to live in, you must first
look at the neighbourhood. Is it full of garbage
and pigs? Noisy people? A fish market? A
supermarket? You must avoid all these things in the
beginning. You can go to the forest to meditate.
Then, when you have learned the art of meditation,
you can sit in the middle of a fish market or on
Shalimar Crossing [crossroad in Lucknow] or
Hazrat Ganj [shopping district of Lucknow].
Once you have mastered the art of meditation, you
will not hear noise. You will not hear anything.
When you are truly meditating, you will be in the
same state that you were while you were sleeping.
But you will be awake at the same time. This is
called sleeping while being awake. Until you have
learned this, it is better to avoid uncongenial
environments. See what your neighbourhood is like
before you move in. The neighbourhood has to be
good. The neighbourhood is even more important than
your own apartment. Find people to live among who
are following your own way of life. Teachers like
to be with teachers, philosophers with
philosophers, workers with fellow workers. They all
very much like to be with each other. But once you
have learned the art of true meditation, you can do
whatever you like, wherever you like.
Jeff: What is meditation to you? Many
different kinds of meditation are practised. Many
of them rely on looking at phenomena such as
watching the breath, or seeing thoughts rise and
Papaji: You are not speaking of meditation,
you are speaking of concentration. Meditation only
takes place when you are not concentrating on any
object. If you can manage not to bring any object
of the past into the mind, that is called
meditation. Do not use your mind that is
called meditation. If you use your mind to
meditate, it is not meditation, it is
concentration. The mind can only cling to some
object that belongs to the past. Have you been told
to meditate without the aid of the mind?
Jeff: That is hard to answer. Most of the
meditation that I have done involves techniques for
dealing with thoughts that arise. But the aim of
the meditation seems to be a thoughtless state,
where no thoughts arise.
Papaji: Yes, that is called meditation. When
no thoughts arise, that is called meditation.
Jeff: But thoughts arise, inevitably. How
does one deal with thoughts that arise?
Papaji: I will tell you how to deal with
them. I think you can devote an amount of time
equal to a finger snap. That is all the time I need
to stop your thoughts. What is a thought? What is
mind? There is no difference between thought and
mind. Thought arises from mind and mind is merely a
bundle of thoughts. Without thoughts there is no
mind. What is mind? "I" is mind. Mind is past, it
is clinging to past, present and future. It is
clinging to time, clinging to objects. This is
called mind. Now, where does the mind arise from?
When the "I" rises, mind rises, senses rise, the
world rises. Now, find out where the "I" rises from
and then tell me if you are not quiet. Go on,
comment on what is happening while you do it.
Jeff: I am listening to you speak.
Papaji: After that. We have arrived at the
fact that the mind is "I", and that mind arises
from "I". When the "I" rises, the mind rises. This
is what happens in the transition from sleeping to
waking. Now, find out that reservoir, the place
where the "I" rises. Where does the "I" rise
Jeff: It is the name.
Papaji: Wait, wait. You don't follow. I will
repeat it again. If there is a canal which comes
out of a reservoir, you can follow this canal back
to the place where it emerges from the reservoir. I
am telling you, follow the "I"-thought in the same
way. Where does it rise from? I will tell you how
to do it, how to find the answer. You don't have to
box like Mohammed Ali for this. It is very simple.
To know yourself is as simple as rubbing a rose
petal. This knowledge or realisation is as simple
as a rose petal in your fingers. It is not
difficult at all. Difficulties only arise when you
make an effort. So, you don't have to make any
effort to go to the reservoir which is the Source
of "I". Don't make any effort and don't think
either. Reject effort and reject thought. When I
say reject thought, I mean, "Reject the "I"-thought
and any kind of effort".
Jeff: It feels like a comet that is skirting
the atmosphere. It flashes briefly and then
disappears back into space. It is like a momentary
spark of flame which is followed by the darkness of
Papaji: Not again. For "again" you have to
go to the past. "Again" is past. I am telling you
to get rid of this "I". Don't make an effort and
don't think either for one single second. Even half
of a second or a quarter of a second is quite
enough. My dear young Jeff, you have not spent this
much time on yourself in thirty-five million years!
Here and now is the time to do it.
Jeff: I find it impossible not to make an
effort. There is always a trying. There is an
expectation, a sense of trying, always.
Papaji: All this "doing" has been taught to
you by your parents, by your priests, by your
teachers, by your preachers. Now, instead, keep
quiet for a quarter of a second and see what
happens. You have inherited doing from your
parents: "Do this and do that." You went to the
priest and he told you, "Do this and don't do
that". Then you heard the same thing from society
and from everywhere else. I am telling you to get
rid of both doing and of not doing. When you
indulge in doing, you are back in your parents'
world. You first learned doing from your mother. If
you did not handle your spoon and fork correctly,
she slapped you at the dinner table and said,
"Don't do this!" Do's and don'ts first came from
your mother. And then from the priest: "You have to
go to a particular church. Don't go to somebody
else's church. If you do, you will go to heaven. If
you don't, you will go to hell. You are a
I say, "Get rid of both doing and not doing". Have
at least a taste of it. You have already had a
taste of doing. There are six billion people and
they are all tasting doing. Tell me, what is the
result of all this doing? Recently we have seen the
result of doing in the Gulf. We have also seen
three wars. The result of this doing is hatred
between man and man, and lots of killing. Let us
instead see what can be done by not doing. In not
doing, there will be love, not hatred. Let this
love spring up once again as it did in the time of
Buddha and Ashoka.
Jeff: Papaji, now that I am calling you
"Papaji", I am putting you in a parental role. It
feels a little awkward.
Papaji: This parent tells you: "Don't make
any effort." Listen to this Papaji, to only one of
his words. If you don't listen to this Papaji, you
will have many other Papaji's for another
thirty-five million years!
Jeff: I am a writer and I find it very
natural to write. People are always coming to me,
asking for advice on writing and I tell them: "Just
do it naturally. Just write as you would speak.
There is nothing that is easier." But they can't do
it. They need to make some effort to do it.
Papaji, you awakened spontaneously and completely
naturally at the age of eight. Why are you so
confident that it will be so easy and so natural
for others? We have spent thirty-five million years
trying with little success.
Papaji: I must also have spent that long. I
know it because I have seen many of my past lives.
Buddha also said that he spent many, many
incarnations trying to wake up. He also knew them
very well. He remembered very clearly a slight
mistake he had made 253 incarnations ago. He also
had been doing and doing.
You asked me a direct question. I do not know what
caused my awakening. It was very spontaneous. I did
not have any background, I did not do any
meditation, I had not read any book about
enlightenment. I was in Pakistan, so these books
were not available. They are mostly written in
Sanskrit, but I had not studied Sanskrit. I had
only studied Persian. It came to me, but how I do
not know. Perhaps it chose me. The Truth reveals
itself to a holy person. I did not have any
qualification. I was not educated at that time. I
was only eight years old, studying in the second
standard. What I saw then I am still seeing. What
is it? What is it? What is it? I am more and more
in love with It with each passing moment.
Jeff: All my life I have wondered what it
would have been like to have lived in the time of
the Buddha, and to have sat at his feet. Here with
you, I feel I know the answer to that question.
Papaji: You have been with him, you must
have been with him. Otherwise you would not have
asked these questions, you would never have come
here. What about the other people, the other six
billion people? Why don't they come to satsang?
What about your neighbours, what about your
parents, what about your society? Why only you? You
have been chosen, you have been chosen for this
When you know It, you will know It in an instant.
In that instant, you will know that nothing ever
happened before, and that nothing will ever happen
in the future. In one moment you thought you were
bound. In that same moment you will find that you
are free. In that instant of awakening, you will
know that there is no freedom, no bondage. You will
know, "I am what I am".
Jeff: Papa, can the mind assist in the
process of realising freedom?
Papaji: Yes, it can. Mind is your foe and
mind is your friend also. When attached to sense
objects it is your enemy. But when it aspires to
come to satsang, the same mind is a friendly mind.
It will give you freedom.
Jeff: That's a big relief for some reason.
When we speak of realising freedom, who is
Papaji: This "who" itself is realising
freedom. The "who" who is asking the question is
the same "who" who feels that this "who" is now
bound. After having known this, "who" will show its
oneness. "Look here, Jeff," it will say, "I am the
same "who" who brought you here!"
Jeff: It was Saint Francis who said, "What
you are looking for is who is looking".
Papaji: Yes, yes. When you only say "Who?",
w-h-o, where do you find it, tell me? Where? You
have to add something. Only then will the reply
come. Who are you? If you simply say "Who?", who
then will appear to you? Simply say "Who? Who?
Jeff: I'm going to start sounding like an
owl in a minute. You say that the force that has
brought us here, that brought us to satsang, will
take care of us. What force is that?
Papaji: The force which has brought you
here, the force which is speaking your words, the
force which is asking the questions: that force is
the same. The force has now become the questioner.
The same force is now asking. And this force is
also telling you, "Keep quiet!"
Jeff: [shaking his head] After you,
Papaji, I could interview anybody.
In the scientific view everything that we perceive,
from an apple to pure Grace, is the result of
neural signals and chemical processes. From the
biological perspective the miracle of consciousness
has a direct physical cause. How can we be certain
that consciousness, awareness, awakeness is not
just a chemical reaction, and that the realisation
of Emptiness is no more than a mere quieting of our
Papaji: Science has done very well in its
researches. I don't have any quarrels with science.
We are living in the twentieth century and we are
very lucky to enjoy the benefits of the results of
scientific research. I can't reject scientific
discoveries. Without them you could not have come
here from California in just twenty hours. So, we
should accept them. But where does the intellect
which discovers come from? Discoveries have been
made about the nature of the cells in the brain.
But where these cells get their energy from has not
yet been discovered. I hope that this will one day
It is Emptiness Itself which animates these cells.
These cells then send signals throughout the body
to the billions and trillions of cells in the body
which activate thoughts, movement of the limbs, the
senses, the mind, etc... This is creation. In the
beginning there is Emptiness. Emptiness animates
the cells, and the cells then make the intellect
and the mind work. Then, once there is mind, the
body, the senses and the objects they see, arise.
All these perceptions are registered via the
Each cell is giving you a new incarnation. Each
cell. Because what you desire will enter directly
into the cells and lie hidden there. These desires
will emerge from the cells at the appropriate
moment and reincarnate in other cells. It is the
cells which have reincarnated and become mind. Your
question was that maybe Emptiness is just something
chemical happening in the brain. But who is aware
of this chemical happening? Some higher force, some
force which is subtler than the cells is conscious
of what is happening to the cells. It is aware.
What is that force?
Jeff: Grace, Self. The larger context
in which we are all existing in all forms. In
asking this question I want you and everyone in
this room to understand that I feel Grace in your
presence, Papaji. I am not denying that, I am just
trying to understand and to remove the doubt. So my
answer would be "Grace". It sounds to me like a
force that must encompass everything, even more
than everything. It is something that is larger
than everything. But it also sounds to me like
something I am being asked to believe in, something
I must have faith in. Is faith in the Supreme force
a prerequisite for freedom? Must we have faith in
this force to awaken to freedom? Does what you are
giving us require faith?
Papaji: The word "faith" is used by the
founders of religions. When you say the word
"faith" you must go back to the founder of some
particular set of beliefs. Faith means following
someone from the past. When you speak the word
"faith", you must see that your mind goes to the
past. Tell me any instance where there is a
question of faith that doesn't belong to the
Jeff: For me, the word "faith" is associated
with religions, dead religions.
Papaji: This word takes you to images from
the past. "Have faith in this god or that god, in
this statue or that statue." I don't tell the
children who are here to have faith in anything
from the past. I don't teach faith at all. I teach
knowledge. Knowledge has nothing to do with faith.
Faith brings you to the past, knowledge to the
present moment. Between Self and Grace
there is no difference. When you use the
word Self [Atman], the mind does not
hold onto any person, any thing, any concept. When
you utter the word "Grace", you should not think
that it is coming from such and such a person, or
an image or a thing. Grace is more than space,
higher, subtler, more supreme than even space.
Where does the space arise from? That is .
Through whose Grace does the sun shine? The shining
of the sun is a manifestation of that Grace. The
moon in the night, the hardness of a rock, the
softness of a flower, the flow of a river, the
movement of air and the waves of the ocean. What is
this thing which moves the air? Not the movement
itself, not the movement of the waves on the
surface of the ocean. I am talking about that
ultimate power which is the Source of the movement:
Jeff: It is the ultimate mystery.
Papaji: Call it mystery if you like. That
mysteriousness is called Grace. There is no
difference. It is a mystery and it will always
remain a mystery. This mystery, this secret is so
very sacred, you will not be able to tell me about
it. When I took you to that place, you could not
tell me about it. If it were not a secret, surely
you would tell me about it, because you know me. I
will not deceive you. You did not tell me what was
happening in this instant because you couldn't. It
is so secret, two cannot walk abreast there. Not
even one. Not the body, not the mind, not the
senses, not even the discriminative intellect. That
I have been trying for the last sixty years, but I
cannot solve this mystery. I have never been able
to solve this secret. I am an old man. You are very
young, so please speak to me. I want to see that
secret, that mystery face to face. I want to kiss
Him, I want to kiss Her, because I have not seen a
beauty like this beauty anywhere on the face of
this planet. I am in love with someone, but the
Beloved I have not seen.
Jeff: How did I end up sitting at your feet
like this? What kind of miracle is this that put me
Papaji: You have called. It is your
Jeff: Papaji, you recommend that we don't
read books about awakening because it just creates
the preconception and expectation of what awakening
will feel like, taste like, of what it will be
like. What then do you hope to convey about it in
Papaji: I don't recommend that you read any
sacred books or books about saints. When you read a
spiritual book, you will probably like some part of
it. If you read it and like it, you store it in the
memory. Later, you sit in meditation, trying to get
freedom. You want to be free, and you have a
conception of freedom which you have acquired from
your books. When you meditate, this preconceived
idea will manifest and you will experience it. You
forget that what you are experiencing is something
that is stored in your memory. What you get is a
past experience, not enlightenment. The real
experience is not an experience of a past memory.
The mind deceives you when you meditate. The mind
is always going to deceive you and cheat you, so
don't depend on the mind. If the mind wants or
likes something, don't listen to it. Whatever the
mind likes, dislike it. Memory means past. When you
meditate, you are trying to execute a plan which is
in your mind: "I have to arrive at the place I have
read about." Your later experience is therefore
preplanned and that is what you get, because
whatever the mind thinks, it manifests.
When you have a thought of samsara,
manifestation arises. This is your thought, your
wish. That is why the world manifests. It looks so
real to you because you have faith in its reality.
Once you experience that Supreme Reality is
somewhere else, you will
reject samsara instantly. You will have a
very new, very fresh experience. Each moment will
be new. You will not experience it with the mind.
Then there will be no mind, you will be all alone.
This and this alone is called "experience". I won't
use the word experience again because all
experiences are planned from the past. It is not
really going to be an experience, it is going to be
a very direct meeting. For the first time you will
meet That. You will go to meet It after denuding
your mind, after denuding all the concepts of the
mind. You have to go there undressed. Undress
everything. Be nude. Even denude yourself of the
nudity. Do you understand? The chamber of this
Beloved is so sacred, this is the only way you can
enter. If you want to meet your Beloved, go there.
Who stops you? Do it now itself. It is so simple.
To dress up takes time. To undress is much
Jeff: Yesterday you told a story about a
Guru who was so deeply engrossed in meditation, he
didn't care for his sick son. Someone asked you
about responsibility. I also want to ask you the
same question: "Is freedom also freedom from
Papaji: The man who asked me about this came
to me again. I told him that this was a story of a
saint, his wife and his son. I told him, "You do
not relate to any one of these three, neither the
son, nor the wife, nor the husband. This is a story
of a saint and his wife. You have to become either
a saint, or his wife to know. Or at least his son."
Then he kept quiet and said he was satisfied.
Responsibilities have been there for a long time.
You have a mind and an ego which says, "This
belongs to me and that belongs to him". From this,
Who is the father of all this creation? Before your
birth, thissamsara, this creation, was already
there. It has been here for millions of years. Who
looked after it during all this time? You have been
looking after your own responsibilities, your own
liabilities, for about thirty years. After seventy
years you will not be looking after them any
longer. Your responsibilities and liabilities, the
span of your duty, cannot be more than a hundred
years. What about the millions of years before you?
Who is responsible for the billions of activities
that went on before you were born?
If you accept responsibility for your family, your
son, your wife, your society, your country and all
others in the world, you have to move your mind,
your body and your intellect. Don't you? To fulfill
these responsibilities you need three things: good
health, which means a good body, a good mind, which
means good intentions, and compassion. Where do you
draw these things from? Where do you get the energy
to move the body so that you can help others
physically? Where do you get the energy to move the
mind to send compassion to others? Where do you
draw this energy to act?
Jeff: It is drawn from Grace.
Papaji: If you know that you are drawing the
energy from Grace, how and why do things become
your own responsibility? This bulb is shining,
light is there. Can the lamp say, "It is my light!
If I want to shine I will shine, and if I don't
there will be darkness"? The light does not come
from here. The reservoir, the Source of it, is
somewhere else. If this lamp says, "I am bright.
Because of me you can see," it is mistaken. It
doesn't know. Where does the current come from?
Where does the electricity come from? There was a
chief electrical engineer who worked in this place,
so I asked him: "What is electricity? If you break
the wire through which the current is passing to
give us light, I don't see anything."
He answered, "We do not know yet. Somehow it works.
Electricity is generated, but where it ultimately
comes from, that we still do not know. We do not
know what is the original source of that power
which flows through the wires."
When you are five years old, your parents look
after you. When you grow older and you feel that
you can look after yourself, you leave your parents
and work for yourself. Your parents are happy when
you start to be independent. If you have trouble,
you can always go back to them for help and advice,
and you will always be welcome. Why am I telling
you this? There is an energy, a Grace, which
nurtures you and looks after you. You can go back
to It at any time for sustenance. That reservoir is
the Source of all energy. It is the Source of
electricity and the Source of your own energy as
well. Don't forget that all your energy, the energy
through which you do work, comes from Self,
from Grace. When you tap into that Source, you will
have two hundred percent more energy to work with
than you have now. Go back to your country and see
When you let this Grace run your life, you will
know, "This is coming from Grace. It is my good
luck that I have seen this Grace working. Through
it I have been given the opportunity to look after
my children, my wife, my relations, my society, my
country." When you function from that place, you
will have a new life. Many people who leave here
write to me: "Where does this energy come from? We
were busy before but now we have taken on more jobs
and we still don't fatigue ourselves. We feel very
young now. It is as if we were thirty years younger
than when we came to Lucknow."
Jeff: Then I would be eight years old. A
good time for an awakening!
Papaji: Yes, yes. Otherwise you will be too
old. It has to be got in childhood or youth. In old
age there are responsibilities. Children will
trouble you, society will trouble you, diseases
will trouble you. The body is a disease itself. It
is full of complications. When you are old, your
mind will be dwelling on your diseases. It will not
be able to concentrate. There will be mental
ailments, physical troubles, relationships
so many things. So you have to do it in your prime,
in your youth. Childhood is the best time, but
youth is also good. Some old people have also come
here. They will be all right next time.
Jeff: Yesterday a woman came and saw you.
She was a bit older than I am and she seemed to
have a wonderful visit with you. When I saw her, I
was very confident because I thought, "I still have
Papaji: Why time? What for? You get rid of
time here. Why depend on time? Time is the past.
When you go from here, you throw away time. You
don't need time
This has actually happened here. A man about fifty
years of age came from L.A. because he was not
happy that his son was always here. He was a rich
man and wanted to take his son away and make him
work in some business. He had brought hundreds of
questions and wanted to fight with me. He wanted to
know why I had taken his son from him. They had
three rooms in the Clarks Hotel and spent the night
there before coming to see me. The next morning his
son introduced him to me. He sat down in front of
me in my house.
The father said: "You came to me last night. You
sat by my bed in the Clarks Hotel and you answered
all my questions. Now I have nothing to ask.
He had a watch on his wrist which he placed next to
me, saying, "I don't need time now".
He stayed here for twenty days. Have you ever seen
an American with no watch? Even while going to
sleep they have a watch under the pillow. Even when
they go to the bathroom the watch is there. They
are so careful, so punctual, even in the
When he was leaving, I said to him, "What about the
time? If you don't have a watch, you will have to
ask other people the time." He replied, "No, it is
all the same. Getting up and sleeping now it
is all the same. I have forgotten time. I don't
need it anymore."
I told him, "No, take my time now," and I fastened
the watch on his wrist
When you have time, the mind and all these other
things, you have to be responsible for them
yourself. But when you know the beauty of no-mind
and no-time, who will look after you? If you rely
on the Supreme Power, it will take care of you very
Jeff: Papaji, nearly all of us are very
well-to-do people from free countries. Visiting you
in Lucknow is a privilege that all of us can
afford. For many people, though, freedom still
means relief from political oppression, from
imprisonment, from torture. Is external bondage an
impediment to internal freedom, and if it is, do
you see a place for political activism in the
Papaji: External circumstances are no
impediment. The impediment is the ego. Impediments
are created by the ego. "I have to do this." "I
must not do that." This idea that you are doing
something is the impediment. If you act without
feeling that you are the doer, there will be no
impediments. The Supreme Power is working through
you. It will guide you as the circumstances
Jeff: I spend some time working for human
rights. People in other countries like Burma and
Tibet are being terribly oppressed. They are being
killed or hurt by people who have taken control of
them. You say that the body itself is a disease and
that sometimes, in old age, the body exerts a
tyranny that makes it very difficult to wake up.
There are some places where one could be killed
just for attending satsang. There are places where
meetings like these are prohibited. In these places
the government agents would gun us down if we tried
to assemble for a satsang. These external
circumstances must be an impediment. And since they
are, there must be a need for people to take action
against their oppressors. You yourself did that in
your twenties, if your biography is accurate. How
do you deal with that kind of action?
Papaji: The world is moving towards
disaster. We are moving towards the destruction of
the human race itself. Atom bombs and chemical
weapons are taking us there. This is not the way to
go. Let us try instead broadcasting compassion and
love towards all human beings and to all other
beings. Let us try this. Here in satsang we are
making a trial. We are spreading the message of
peace and love. I hope that the message will
spread. All those who are here are ambassadors of
their respective countries. They will give this
message to their parents and to the people in their
country. This fire will spread. One day you will
see its results. You yourself are going home. You
will speak to your people, to your friends, and
they will find out what is happening. You will see
a tremendous change. I am very sure about it. These
times are now coming.
We have to learn the lessons that previous
destructions have taught us. We have still not
forgotten Hiroshima in Japan. People are still
suffering there. We can't forget.
We must learn the lesson and spread the message of
love as it was done during the time of Ashoka, when
there was peace everywhere. There were no wars
then. He sent his own daughter and son to Sri
Lanka, to China and the eastern countries. This is
how the message was spread. This message of peace
was started by one man sitting under the bodhi
tree. The flame of love is very powerful. Once it
is ignited, it will start a conflagration that
cannot be stopped, even by chemical weapons.
Simply meditate alone. You can do it anywhere, even
in your own apartment. You will see the results.
Keep quiet, send the message of peace, "Let there
be peace," all over the world. "Let all beings live
happily in peace." This wavelength has to work.
Jeff: Let's hope that it does.
Papaji: Not hope, no. I don't believe in
hope. Hope is about the future. Let us trust in the
Supreme Power. It will look after this world very
well. It can bring about instant change. Pray to
the Supreme Power: "Please help us to be in peace
with all living beings. Please teach us." It is
very easy to teach others, to give others advice.
Help yourself first. Find out for yourself what
peace is. Don't bother trying to help others until
you yourself have learned what it is.
Jeff: What have you learned from your years
as a teacher?
Papaji: I am not a teacher. Who told you I
am a teacher? A teacher's teaching is always of the
past. A teacher is someone who tells you to do this
and to do that, and that if you don't you will go
to hell. This is a teacher. I am neither a teacher
nor a preacher.
Jeff: I'll rephrase the question: What have
you learned from sitting in this spot in satsang
over the years?
Papaji: Love, love, only love. I love them
[gestures toward the satsang].
Jeff: Why "them", Papa, don't you love me,
Papaji: I don't include you in this, because
you are the Beloved. I love them, and you are my
Beloved. What does it mean? Because you are my
Beloved, you are seated next to me.
[In a later interview Papaji explains what
happens when people approach him in satsang: "I
absorb them all and give them a seat in my Heart,
in my Heart. As the lover gives a seat to the
beloved in his Heart, you are always seated in my
Jeff: Thank you, Papa.
Papaji: Thank you for coming here. On behalf
of myself I thank you, and on behalf of my children
I thank you again and again. I am very happy with
your questions. We have all benefited from these
questions. The vibration from this satsang is not
confined to this building. It has already been
transmitted all over the world. You will see.
Jeff: Papa, you have a very broad
wavelength. Any kind of dish can receive this
Papaji: No dish and no signal! You don't
need any signals. For signalling you need two
one to send and one to receive.
Jeff: Of course. When will I ever learn?
Papaji: [laughing] You are answering
my question now. You asked me so many questions. I
asked you only one question, and this is the answer
to it. Here is the signal without signalling.
Beautiful. What is this? At least you can tell me
now. The interview is over. What is this?
What is this? What is happening inside? What is
this enjoyment? You can feel it. All the cells are
enjoying it. Do you see now? They are enjoying
nectar. [picking up the question paper] I
will take these questions with me.
Jeff: To my amazement, Papaji, you answered
them all. I thought there were some pretty tricky
questions, but they all have exactly the same