months later, another lion came to drink at the
river and was amazed to see this lion cub eating
grass near the river bank along with the donkeys.
Lions usually eat donkeys and humans, not grass. It
moved closer for a better look. He couldn't believe
his eyes. Was he dreaming? How could this be? He
got even closer, which caused all the donkeys to
flee away and the washerman to climb a tree. The
tame lion also tried to run away, because he was
afraid just like the donkeys. The hunter lion
chased and caught the tame lion. He jumped on him
and knocked him to the grass.
The tame lion was very afraid. "Please, sir, please
don't eat me", he said. "Let me go and join the
"But you are a lion", the one on top replied.
"No, sir, I am a donkey."
So the hunter lion took his charge down to the
"Look at your reflection", he said. "We are the
The tame lion looked into the water and saw two
lions looking back.
"You are a lion and you have always been a
"Then how is it that I felt I was a donkey?"
"By associating with donkeys you became a
"Then how can I now live like a lion since I have
only lived as a donkey?"
"Listen, look, open your mouth and utter a roar,
like I do." He roared and then the other lion
"It is as simple as that. Don't practice being a
lion. Roar! How long does it take to roar? No time!
Open your mouth and it's finished."
"I am a lion!" He never returned back with the
He needed a teacher to tell him, he needed someone
similar, another lion to tell him,"Utter the roar."
And what is that roar? "I am Reality. I am free! I
am God itself!" This is the roar. Afterwards, you
will not go and play with any donkeys. Playing with
donkeys means listening to the senses, chasing
after objects which constantly change. This is what
I call "sleeping to the Self". So, for one instant
of your life, turn your face towards the Self. Keep
quiet and see who you are. Utter a roar.
Varda: I find keeping quiet very difficult
to do. How do you keep the mind quiet?
Papaji: Those who cannot keep quiet, they
are donkeys. Let them play all their life with
other donkeys, getting loaded with soiled linen,
under the command of the washerman.
Varda: In the West, we are so used to
thinking all the time. Now we learn in the East to
keep the mind quiet. How can we make this
Papaji: Everybody has the same Self. We are
the same Self. East and West are only concepts.
Truth does not belong to the "East" nor the "West".
The same Truth, the same Self is within everyone.
You are the Self, I am the Self. What difference is
there? Self is happiness, beauty and peace. During
life everyone seeks peace. In peace, there is no
difference between East and West. Quietness is your
ultimate nature. Your fundamental nature is
quietness, peace and love. Every word that you
speak arises from peace and ends in peace. There
was only peace in the beginning and there is only
going to be peace in the end. It is only in between
the beginning and end that we feel a disturbance.
But even while you feel disturbed, peace is there.
Nothing can disturb you if you know the trick.
Varda: What is the trick?
Papaji: First of all, we are disturbed by
activity. We get involved in all kinds of
activities that we don't like and as a result we
feel tension, suffering and disturbance. Do you
know from where all activities arise? That we do
not know. We usually attribute activity to the
senses. But where does activity spring from? Let us
go there and see.
Varda: You are asking me?
Varda: From the mind.
Papaji: OK, from the mind. From the mind to
the senses and from the senses to the objects.
These objects are both good and bad, therefore they
bring both happiness and unhappiness. Now, from
where does the mind rise? The mind is just a
thought, a bundle of thoughts. So take any thought
for one instant, and I will tell you where it comes
from. Take any thought. The primal thought is the
"I"-thought, and with this thought, all other
thoughts will follow. Even the thought "my mind"
rises from the mind, as do all activities. So let
us say that activity rises from thought.
Papaji: Now try to find the Source of any
thought. You have not yet tried this. I am taking
you to peace. Like the lion who took the "donkey"
down to the river, I am taking you to peace. Now
for the first time, look at who you really are.
Look at that Source and roar. We are travelling in
the same direction. From where does this
Varda: From the ego?
Papaji: Yes. "I" is ego, isn't it? "I" is
ego itself. "I", ego and the senses are all the
same. OK. Now from where does this ego rise? Whose
ego is it? We say it is "my" ego. Again the
"I"-thought appears. So from where does this "I"
rise? If you run away like the other donkeys, then
it will not work. Instead, go down to the river and
take a look at who you are, like the lion cub.
Right here, right now, find out where the "I" is
Varda: I don't know.
Papaji: Again, you mention this same "I".
Look at where it rises from.
Varda: I really don't know.
Papaji: Again you say, ""I" don't know." You
know, you have to know.
Varda: I have to know?
Papaji: You have to know. You have got to
know. I will tell you how to know it. Turn your
face towards this spring from where the "I" is
rising. It doesn't matter what it is, you have not
tried it before. And no one has told you also.
Whatever you have been seeing so far they
Papaji: Objects are constantly changing.
Relationships are always changing. They keep on
changing. Now you are going to the Source that
never changes. For one second, turn your back on
everything that changes the body, the mind,
the ego and all the objects and look at what
remains. "I" remains. OK, now don't think. Turn
your back on all the past thoughts. Here, you must
not think. Don't stir a single thought and don't
make any effort to understand what it is that I am
doing. No effort and no thinking.
Varda: To be quiet?
Papaji: Just keep quiet and watch how it
comes in front of you without any effort. Just keep
quiet. Thinking means "past", so don't touch the
past. Now tell me who you are at this moment.
Varda: A spark of light.
Papaji: Excellent. This is what this lion
cub did. He saw that he was really a lion. Now
utter the roar, "I am consciousness!" Utter it
Varda: I am consciousness!
Papaji: Yes. Again utter it.
Varda: I am consciousness!
Papaji: So where are the donkeys now? Do you
see any donkeys?
Papaji: Who are you now? Who are you?
Papaji: Yes, that's all. Take care now. In
consciousness, there is the awareness of "I am"
which is completely free from the feeling "I am
this" or "I am that". There are no subjects or
objects, there is only an awareness of being. Now,
try to leave this consciousness and return to all
that is changing. Turn your back on consciousness.
Papaji: You turned your back on all that is
changing on all suffering, tension and death
and you found consciousness. Now turn your
back on consciousness itself. Take a step out of
consciousness. Walk out of it, step by step, and
tell me who you are.
Varda: I am seeking now. I am back in
Papaji: Consciousness has no limitations and
cannot be modified. There is no "East nor "West"
within it. When there are no limitations, this is
consciousness. Try to escape this from this
limitlessness, this empty space, this circle. Are
you still in the circle?
Varda: I am still in the circle, yes.
Papaji: OK. This circle has no limits
because it has no centre. It has no circumference,
no demarcations. All limits have been broken when
you uttered, "I am consciousness." Try to leave
consciousness and look back at who is following
Papaji: Yes. And who is in front of you?
Varda: Also myself.
Papaji: And who is on the left and on the
Papaji: And who is in the East and in the
Papaji: Yes. You now see who you are. After
you uttered, "I am consciousness", you are able to
see. This is what I mean by "roar". Only lions can
do it. And what do donkeys do? None of the other
animals are afraid of donkeys, and neither is
death. A donkey will invite its own death by just
being a donkey. And when you say "I am a body", in
the same way, you are just inviting your own
Papaji: Because the body is the food of
death, as a donkey is the food of a lion. How long
can you keep thinking that "I am a body"? A hundred
Papaji: Maximum a hundred years. Anybody who
says "I am a body", the lion of death is waiting
for him. Therefore if you say "I am consciousness",
no death can come near you because you have become
the Lord of death. Even death will be killed.
Varda: And this is true happiness?
Papaji: Yes, of course. That which does not
change gives you true happiness and that which
changes only gives you suffering. All
relationships, no matter how wonderful they may be,
will one day end. When you lose those who are dear
to you, you will inevitably suffer. Wherever there
are "two", it will end in suffering one day. I have
never seen two together who have not suffered in
the world so far. So where there are two, there is
Papaji: Why? Show me any two that are not
suffering. Your parents, will they always be happy
together? How long can they remain together?
Varda: So happiness comes from within
Papaji: Happiness is the Eternal Oneness. It
is only when you are dreaming that you see the
"many". Therefore, wake up and roar. When you sleep
you are all alone, and while you're asleep you
dream of mountains, rivers, forests, friends,
animals and a world full of people. But is the
Let me tell you another story. One night, a man
goes to sleep and dreams that he gets married and
has many children together with his wife. Then one
day, a flood comes and all of his children are lost
in the flood. His wife too, get washed away with
the flood. The man is now suffering. He is crying,
"Where is my wife? Where are my children?"
Meanwhile, a tiger comes toward him, and he
instantly wakes up. After waking, he fells so
happy. Even though in his dream his wife and
children have died, on waking he knows that it is
all unreal. Even the suffering was unreal. So now
let the tiger appear to tell you, "Wake up, this is
Varda: You mean to say that what we call
"life" is actually a dream?
Papaji: The concept "I am a body" is a
Varda: This is very difficult to
Papaji: No, it is not difficult. Every day
your experience this. Every night, when you go to
sleep you experience this. You leave your body and
friends behind and fall asleep. At that moment, are
you happy or unhappy? To leave everything behind
apartment, car, money, friends and
say, "Good night, I am going to sleep." You leave
the body, the mind and the ego all behind. And
where are you wanting to go and disappear from all
the pleasures of life? Why do you want to hide
yourself and be alone? It must be a happier place
than this world, that's why you want to run away.
To enjoy your Self, alone. No one likes suffering.
You must be very happy in sleep, therefore, you
turn your back on everything and go to sleep alone,
Papaji: Even when you are in the embrace of
your beloved one, even then you say, "Let us sleep
now. It is time, it is midnight, good night." Can
you sleep even in the embrace of your beloved one;
have you slept?
Varda: No. So only in sleep I am alone?
Papaji: Not only in sleep. Each second you
enter into this aloneness, once every second, after
each breath. If you didn't enter into this
aloneness you would go crazy. You have a breath
during this breath, in this breath, you feel
that you are a body and mind, you feel that you
have friends, loved ones and are happy. Then after
this breath, what happens? First of all, what is a
breath? Inhaling and exhaling. In between the
inhaling and exhaling there is peace. Now take a
breath and don't retain it. Simply inhale. Inhale,
and then exhale. Now, what have you done? Can you
do it continuously, or do you have to stop and then
Varda: I have to stop.
Papaji: OK. You have to stop. Inhale now. So
you have to stop when your lungs are filled with
air, and then you exhale. So, what happens just
after inhaling and right before exhaling? Can you
tell me anything about it?
Varda: Something which I don't know how to
Papaji: Look towards it. In inhaling, turn
your back on the concept, "I am a body in a world."
Once the inhaling has finished, in the pause before
exhaling has started, at that precise moment, can
you tell me who you are and what you see?
Varda: I am consciousness.
Papaji: Yes, again consciousness. So many
times you have had glimpses of consciousness and
yet you have forgotten them. And yet, if you don't
return to consciousness, you would go crazy.
Consciousness is always present and you are always
in it. Now again, try to leave this consciousness.
Inhale and hold the breath as long as you can, and
I will see what happens. Even in inhaling there is
no thought in the mind. During inhaling, what are
Varda: I am consciousness.
Papaji: Excellent. How simple. Now stop
inhaling. In that instant, who is present in this
Emptiness? Can that Emptiness ever be avoided? Now
exhale, breathe out and at the same time try to
leave the Emptiness. When you inhale again, you are
in the same quietness which you felt inside, in the
Emptiness. Now start again from here. Try to speak
from this Emptiness. What do you see There?
Wherever you go you will be in This, but you need
to be aware of It, that's all. Just keep yourself
constantly aware. You can still do whatever you
want and yet remain aware of the Emptiness. Now you
are not aware, therefore you are in trouble.
Varda: Yes. What about techniques of
meditation? Do any of these help?
Papaji: First of all, I don't prescribe any
meditation. I straight away tell a you, "You are
free." And if you don't listen, then I explain as I
have been explaining to you. If then, you are
unable to understand, then I say, "Trust what I
have told you. Concentrate on the "I am" awareness
of being. You are free from the beginning. You are
free, you have been a lion from the beginning." So
if you don't still believe me, then I tell you,
"Utter the roar, "I am consciousness." Every day on
every breath do this. On inhaling, "I am
consciousness", then on exhaling, "I am
consciousness." " Everyone has to breath, but these
breaths are going to waste unless you become aware
of your true being while breathing.
So, meditation is not taught here because it is not
necessary. So sit, stand, lie down, walk, talk or
do whatever you like, and utter these three words,
"I am consciousness." This is enough. For one
minute, two minutes or five minutes each day. You
are spending at the most a hundred years on this
planet, in this life, so you can spend at least
some time on your own Self. So far, you have not
spent time on this.
Therefore, just take one second out from your
hundred years of life, and in the end you will be
happy. Any one second. Even while leaving, while
departing from this earth, even then you look at
this from here, while going. This life breath has
to pass slowly, go with this thing, until the last
According to some religions, they say that if you
spread a cloth over a thorny bush and then remove
it, this is how prana functions. It goes from the
body, from each nerve it is cut, and a man is in
great trouble. So says the religion of your
neighbouring country. that you are not even born.
So fearlessness is given.
Birth is a concept. Death is a concept. You have
only heard it, as in a dream. You have only heard
that the Self, the soul does not die and is not
born. It is a concept and somehow it has risen in
you. So don't try to investigate how it has
appeared, but rather discard it.
For example, you are sitting under a tree and some
snake falls onto your shoulder from the tree. You
are about to eat something and all of a sudden a
snake falls onto your shoulder, and you wonder, "
From where has this snake come from?" You look up
and understand that it fell from the tree. Then you
continue to wonder, "How did it fall ? How could it
slip?" All this investigation will take up much
time. The best is to just stop the
Varda: Don't investigate?
Papaji: Straight away take the snake by its
tail and throw it away.
Varda: I see.
Papaji: By thinking, you have chosen bad
company. You have started thinking, "I am so and
so, I am the body, I am suffering." You only suffer
when you think that there is someone suffering.
When you suffer, you must attribute that suffering
to someone, to some "I". All suffering belongs to
Varda: To the past?
Papaji: Yes, always to the past.
Varda: So, in this moment I cannot
Papaji: No, you cannot. Right now you cannot
suffer. You suffer only because you take yourself
to be a body, and the body also belongs to the
Varda: So when I don't go to the past there
is only peace?
Papaji: It is peace.
Varda: Is peace?
Papaji: Yes. Can you prove the contrary?
Varda: No, because what I wanted to ask you
is how can we contribute to the peace in the
outside, in the world? So when I am in peace...
Papaji: When you are in peace, everything is
in peace. Everything is in peace.
Varda: And is this what "happiness" is? Is
this real happiness?
Papaji: You are in peace and so everything
is in peace.
Varda: There are people from all over the
world, from many different countries, who come here
to Lucknow to be with you and learn. The meetings
you have with them are called "satsangs". What is
the meaning of satsang?
Papaji: "Sat" means Truth in Sanskrit.
"Sanga" means "to associate with". So the best
association is to associate with the Truth.
Association with the Truth is what satsang is. So
you may be anywhere in the world and you may be
alone, or with other people. Unfortunately, the
word "satsang" has been misinterpreted and
misunderstood. People think that it implies some
form of gathering with many people, but I don't
believe in this.
I am sometimes surprised to see so many people
coming here, because generally when there is a
crowd, there is some falsehood being practised. I
never wanted to remain in one place. If this hall
had not been built, I would have not stayed here.
At the moment I live in my son's house. Three or
four years ago, I travelled to the West, going from
door to door, and had small meetings with people.
Even before that I was staying in the Himalaya. I
would only come to Lucknow several times a year to
visit my wife and children. I had no intention to
stay on in Lucknow, but due to heath problems and
bad legs I have been here for continuously for the
last two years. So these meetings developed
Actually, when there is a gathering of many people
it means that some falsehood is being practised.
How could there be so many people who all want to
be free? It's rare that people seek freedom.
Several times I have attempted to go away, but
again I am here. So this is my karma now. I can't
Satsang is staying with the Truth, or staying with
a being who has seen and experienced the Truth for
himself. Stay with that person, because otherwise
how would know what the Truth is? Truth is within
you, and staying with the Truth within you is
called "satsang". Within the Heart cavity there is
an Emptiness and within It there is a flame which
will show you the way of Truth.
Varda: What happens in satsang? What really
happens to people when they come to satsang?
Papaji: In satsang I see that something is
happening to them. I respect them all. They have
come from far away countries. From past lives they
have gained merits and have accumulated desires and
longings. Therefore, to fulfil those desires, they
have been born in a place where they can fulfil
those desires in whichever country it may be. The
same Truth which was previously hidden within is
now compelling them to go and seek out that Truth.
So, they have come here and I respect them. I
cannot run away from them. They are here and I am
finding that quite a few of them are being
Perhaps now, another era is coming so that the
message of peace can easily be spread. Over the
last twenty years, there seems to be more peace in
the world. Until now, all the world powers and
politicians have been engaged in destroying the
world. You can see how much damage mankind has done
to this planet. Perhaps, in spreading this message
of peace, that "We are all One", we could
eventually remove all the barriers preventing peace
on this planet. Let us live as friends, as brothers
and sisters, as we used to live several thousand
years ago. Let us live in peace with each other, as
holy people do. So, this is going to be a good era,
Coming back to your question: satsang is not only
the "association with the Truth", but is "being the
Truth". "I am Truth"; this is satsang. The Truth is
constantly calling you toward It, but you are
unable to hear the call. It calls out, "Come, come,
I will give you peace, I will give you love and I
will give you the only thing that I have. Come to
me and I will give you the kingdom." So, until now,
you have not been able to listen to this inner
calling. The Self within, consciousness within, is
now helping you to meet someone who will teach you
how to listen and be the Truth. That is why all
these people have come here. And I am very happy
with them and give them as much time as I can.
Varda: What does it mean to be
Papaji: Enlightenment is to stay as you are.
Stay as you are without such labels as "I am
enlightened", "I am a free man", "I am a sage", "I
am a monk", or "I am a saint". Simply, don't give
yourself any label. When you get rid of all labels,
that which remains is called "freedom" or
"enlightenment". When you give yourself a label you
become "someone". When you have removed all
"becomings" and return to conscious being, this is
enlightenment. But the word "enlightenment" is also
just a concept. In being there is no darkness at
all. Only when there is darkness do you need a
candle. But here, in being, there is no darkness,
so there is no need for any candle to bring forth
any light. Only when you become "someone" do you
need a light.
Until now, you have concealed yourself by wanted so
many things. When you label yourself by saying, "I
am so and so", you conceal this beauty, love and
peace. So, remove this "I am so and so", reject the
concept that "I am a donkey." You are a lion and
have always been a lion.
Varda: Do you remember the moment when you
felt that you were really free? Did you experienced
such a moment?
Papaji: I remember it happened at the age of
eight, without doing any practice nor applying a
method. I followed no path nor had I met any
teacher to help me. It just came by itself without
any effort and it was a very happy moment for me,
full of beauty and peace. It was in 1919, and from
that time onward it has remained with me.
Varda: So you felt...
Papaji: I was sitting together with my
relations and neighbours, and it happened while I
was drinking something. And then simply, I was
caught by a extreme happiness that I had never
known. My relations thought I was being haunted by
a ghost or something and tried to remove the ghost
with charms. My mother asked me what was happening,
and I replied, "It is very beautiful." From that
time onward, I only wanted to sit quietly and hide
from everyone. Even during the night. During the
day, I used to skip school just to sit quietly and
meditate. I didn't know why I was meditating or
what I was meditating on. I was simply keeping
quiet. That is why I say to everyone, "Keep quiet
and it will happen without any effort".
Varda: When did you start to teach
Papaji: Although I would not call it a
teaching, right from the age of thirteen or
fourteen, the neighbours used to come to me. And
then, after the partition, quite some time after
meeting my master, Ramana Maharshi in 1943, I was
working in the south of India and several
westerners started coming to me. As far back as
1947, people started coming. There was one Belgium
lady with me at that time, and through her enquiry,
she later became a saint.
Varda: What does it mean to become a
Papaji: It means rejecting life. She was
married to one very rich Indian man who was
studying law in Berlin. And later on, the both of
them rejected everything and created an ashram in
Haridwar. Many people came to meet with me after
being in contact with their ashram. Also, some
missionaries came to see me. There was one Father
Le Saux who wrote about me in one of his books.
Through him, many Christian monks came to me.
Varda: A few days ago, you were talking
about worship. In the West, I feel we do not know
much about worship? What is the meaning of
Papaji: Worship has to be performed, but
unfortunately it has been given little importance.
In truth, everybody is worshipping the Supreme
through It's different forms. In whatever
relationship you have, it is really the Supreme
that is being worshipped. But everybody only sees
the bodies and forms and do not see or know the
Self. All worship is for the sake of the Self and
after enlightenment, the Self has to be worshipped
And what is this worship? Worship or adoration is
not separate from the Self. You always like to be
with that one whom you love, don't you? It is the
conscious awareness with whom you always like to
be. This has to be adored, and this adoration is
what is meant by "worship". In every being or
non-being, you have to worship the Supreme because
the Supreme is everywhere. It is in all rocks,
trees, animals, birds, gods, suns, stars, skies and
humans. It has to be worshipped and respected. Then
you will be loved; It will love you and everybody
will love you. And if you don't worship It, nobody
will love you and the world will appear chaotic in
your eyes. You will have no peace. It all depends
on you. What do you lose in worshipping the
Supreme, being devoted to the Supreme? It is peace,
love and beauty itself.
Whatever you are doing now, even while you are
eating, you are in fact worshipping the Self. While
eating, be watchful, and see who is eating? In the
process of eating,your hands are putting food into
your mouth. Now who is the eater? You say, "I am
eating." Again, you return to consciousness, you
Papaji: "I am eating." The eater has risen
from consciousness. Consciousness has become the
"I". So, who is eating, who has become the munching
of the teeth and who has become the hands which put
the food into the mouth? Who has become the eyes
which see the food, and who has become the food?
And the food becomes the body itself. So, during
this whole process, we are permanently in worship.
Eating is worshipping, seeing is worshipping and
even thinking is worshipping. How does thinking
come about and who is thinking? If you say that "I
am the thinker", then who is giving you the light
to think? Where does this light come from? If you
say that "I am not a thinker", then who is giving
you light to even be a non-thinker? Who gives you
light to be a devotee so that you can worship? And
who is the Supreme? We must start from the
beginning and then this awareness will become a
very beautiful place to stay. You will always like
this place while living with people, speaking to
animals and even while speaking to trees.
There is no difficulty in seeing your own Self.
There is nothing easier. It does not take any time
nor any effort. Self is here, now. You do not need
to travel any distance. The Self is at no distance
from you, not even one centimetre from you. It is
within the breath, behind the retina, through which
the retina sees, through which the eyes see,
through which the breath becomes a breath. Behind
that. So how easy it is to only be here and now.
You are not to do anything nor think anything. Then
you will become that Supreme Power, that is
everything and loves everything.
Varda: What is God? What is the definition
Papaji: God? God with a capital G or smaller
Papaji: No difference. You are God, I say. I
am God. Everything is God. God cannot be limited.
All is God.
Varda: Why did you choose to be in Lucknow?
Is there is any special reason?
Papaji: Because I can no longer walk very
Varda: What is the connection between
physical pains and being free, being
Papaji: Physical pain is in the mind.
Varda: In the mind? But it hurts, it is
Papaji: There may be pain, but it makes a
lot of difference to one who knows that "this is
just a pain". Who has the pain and who is dying? It
makes a lot of difference when you know that it is
only the body that feels the pain. Many people have
severe bodily pains and they are confined to bed.
During their lives they may have pain, arthritis
and it troubles them. They remain at home in bed
and don't even wish to walk. Due to all this
trouble their bones become old. They become like an
old person. This body is like a machine, like a
car. Even if the car is old, the driver is still
healthy and young. Same goes for this body.
Varda: Many people who are seeking freedom
feel that their health gradually becomes better.
They feel more alive and have less tension. Does
being free improve the body's well-being?
Papaji: First of all, it is good to accept
the reality that your body is in pain, but it is
much better to finish with all karma. These pains
are due to karma. We are wearing this body because
of our previous momentum, of our longing to fulfil
all our previous desires. So in freedom, all the
past karmas are finished. You are free from karma
and desire. The knowledge, "I am free, I am a lion"
burns the karma and burns any previous notion of
being a donkey. This means that all the old
samsaras and old karmas vanish instantly with this
light of true knowledge. When you see this light,
immediately the old karmas vanish. Just like when
you turn on the light, immediately all darkness
vanishes. Now, when the past has gone, the future
must vanish as well. The future needs some
foundation to remain and that foundation is the
past. So when the past has vanished, the future
must vanish with it. Past and future are the same.
There is no difference. You can only speak about
"tomorrow" and "yesterday" in this moment, today.
Anything that you can speak of must come from the
This body is the previous karma which is now in
momentum. Momentum means that the fruit has already
been born. The tree is planted and now it produces
fruit. Once the tree has been planted you cannot
stop it from bearing fruit. So even after attaining
freedom, this body still has to run it's course.
For example, say you are hunting and see an animal
in the distance. You think it is a tiger so you
shoot a bullet from your rifle. But after firing
you realise that you were mistaken and that in fact
it is only a cow. Once the shot has been fired, you
cannot call it back. It has to finish it's course.
So all the previous karma that is stored up is now
manifesting as this body and these bodily pains.
The karma has to take revenge on this body in this
After enlightenment, it is written in the
Scriptures that the body must die after twenty-one
days. After twenty-one days, this body cannot stand
the shock of this beauty. This beauty is so
tremendous. The body, the mind and the nervous
system cannot bear the light, the peace. It is a
tremendous shock. It has to die instantly with this
shock of wonder, amazement. Instantly it dies.
There have been many. Therefore, we have no
recollection of what this Reality is. Instant
But in some cases, due to previous karma, some
bodies continue to live even after enlightenment.
This may be due to one or two purposes. One is to
help those people who are here for the same reason,
and this Supreme Power is keeping this body alive
and working through it in order to help others to
awaken. So this body is maintained under the
commands of the Supreme Power to help others and to
also bear the old karmas in the way of troubles and
diseases. Troubles and diseases pounce on this body
and take their revenge, once and for all, until it
is finished. So this man, of course, is in trouble,
like the others. He has a power to use, but does
not, because he knows himself to be the Source of
everything. Even though pains are there, he remains
silently as the Self.
Suppose that a man dreams that a tiger pounces on
him. Meanwhile, somebody has fired a shot at this
tiger and it dies. But the man has been injured
severely. This is all happening within a dream,
mind you. So when he wakes up he remembers that the
injury inflicted by the tiger was very painful, yet
he knows that this injury was only a dream-injury.
But still he remembers that he was attacked by a
tiger. Like this, he remembers the old connection
of this pain, this injury, but knows it to be only
As the Buddha was once having a very severe
headache, he said, "I want to sit. I cannot walk."
His close disciple, Ananda, replied,"Sir, the
village is very near. I will run and bring you some
medicine." The Buddha responded, "No Ananda, please
sit down. This pain is not from this current life.
This severe pain is due to my previous births. I
was living in a village where there had been no
rain for three consecutive seasons and the ponds of
the village were all dried up. The fish were dying
in the mud and the villagers were throwing stones
at them to kill them so that they could eat them. I
also did so. I also threw stones at the fish and I
remember that they were injured and crying. I also
killed some fish. So, this headache is due to this
and it will eventually go away. I just have to bear
So, we know the cause of this, and we have to bear
it. I have to bear it. But at the same time, there
is also a deep happiness due to enlightenment.
Varda: OK. Thank you very much.
Papaji: I am very happy with this interview
and with you because you can now see happiness. I
am sure that when you return home you will share
this message of happiness with those around you.
Thank you very much.