there be peace and love among all beings of the universe. OM
Shanti, Shanti, Shanti.
AVID : Papaji,
we are trying to make a film about your teachings.
How can we make a film when you say you have no
To have any teaching is preaching. Teacher has no
teaching, no method, no way. To know thy own Self,
you don't need any teaching. What you really are,
always you are That itself. No one is going to
teach you. You have to realise who you are, here
and now, in this moment.
David: Papaji, you're telling people to look
in a particular direction. You're saying, "Look
towards your own Self." Isn't telling people this a
Papaji: No direction. [laughter] If
they don't look in any direction... Looking in any
direction is abiding to any direction, to any
object, so they get lost. So if they do away with
all directions, no concept of of any direction in
their mind, then they will know what they have been
really, and they will know that they are That
itself: which they have been always and would
David: Do you regard yourself as a Guru,
Papaji: No, not at all! [laughter] I
never declare, "I am a Guru."
David: But what about all these people who
are coming to you Papaji, the ones who think
they're your devotees? Are they your devotees?
Papaji: When there is no Guru there is no
question of any devotees. They come to see me, I
welcome them. Whosoever comes, I welcome them. If
they don't come, I wish them good luck. And when
they leave me I say, "Farewell. Be happy wherever
David: Papaji, you encourage everyone who
comes to you to look for their own Self. What
motivates you to do this?
My own happiness, because they're sleeping and
they're suffering when the treasure is within them.
And they're suffering. Everybody, all the human
beings of this world are suffering and trying to
find peace and happiness in the objects. And this
has turned out in the end, pain and suffering.
There's no object in the mind, no person, no thing,
no concept that can return you to happiness and
peace of mind. So I just tell them, I give them
this information: "Don't look here, there,
anywhere. Peace is within you and within the Heart
of all beings. So you keep quiet, don't look
anywhere, don't allow your mind to abide anywhere,
and you will see that It is peace, happiness
itself. That is the fundamental truth. And every
being in the world is happiness itself."
David: Papaji, I think that most people who
come to see you would say that you are giving out
something more than information. Almost everyone
who comes to you feels that there is some power,
some Grace in your presence and that this power and
this Grace enables them to find out who they really
are. Do you have any comment on this?
Papaji: Definitely, I am pointing out at
their own Self which is the fountain of the Grace,
of love, of beauty. Here arises the love and peace
also. I just point out to them, "Look within
yourself for one second. And you will not search,
not find, but you will see that you are peace
itself. I just point out, you see. People who are
sleeping, it's better to wake them up because in
the dream they are suffering and in the dream, this
is only a projection what they are suffering for,
seeing a tiger, a robber pouncing on them, but
actually this is only a projection. So stop all the
projections and you will see that the dream was a
dream, it was not a reality. So whatever you see,
it's a dream. Wherever there is an object, wherever
there is a seer and the seen, or objects and
subjects, and if you get rid of it somehow, of this
relationship between object and subject, what's
David: When people come to see you and you look
at them and they say, "Papaji, I'm suffering", do
you feel compassion for them, and when in your
presence they wake up, do you rejoice? Do you have
any reactions like these?
Papaji: I do feel compassion because what
else is there for me? I have compassion for all
beings who are suffering and who are dreaming. I
just tell them, "Wake up, my dear friends, my dear
children, wake up. There's no suffering at all.
It's only a projection of your mind and which has
produced the suffering and you are dreaming only.
Wake up from the dream and all the suffering will
David: Can we talk about something
different, Papaji? Could you tell us the story of
the Japanese professor with one lung who couldn't
stop laughing. I think that is a very good story
about your teaching. Can you tell the whole
Papaji: [Papaji laughs] Somehow he came
to know about me from Japan. He came to see me and
I was living in my house and he asked the people
downstairs, "I want to see the master." So this man
was a zen master. Himself was a zen master and a
professor in some University in Japan. So he said,
"I cannot go up the stairs." The other people said,
"Papaji is very busy. Some other people are also
there." Then he said, "Okay. Slowly if you give me
some help, and I will go up." There are not many
steps and they are not very high.
So, somehow he came and I made him sit infront of
me, but what was going on? Only laughing. Only
laughing. So he was of Zen background. I was not
teaching. Only laughing and everybody was laughing
and there were people from about 30 or 32
countries. Westerners and Indians also. So they
were laughing and then he also started laughing. So
he laughed and laughed. There was no particular
talk. So then there was a time for the lunch. And
lunch was on the ground floor. So everybody came
down and lunch was served to him. Then he spoke to
some people. He was on one lung and one lung was
taken away, and "the doctors told me that you have
not to laugh and you have not to go up anytime."
And when he came up and down and when he laughed,
he said, "I thought my other lung has been
replaced. I feel." And then he was feeling actually
that his lung was replaced.
And he was all the time laughing and laughing. He
didn't have any questions. So, when he returned
back, he said, "I will invite you to Japan." But I
said I am going to Venezuela, then he said, "I will
send one of my students, not only will I send you a
ticket and invitation, but I will send you one of
my best students." And his student came once I
returned from Venezuela and some other countries.
Then he said that when he returned from Lucknow and
people asked him, "What have you brought from
Lucknow? What is the teaching of Poonjaji?" Then he
started laughing. "What is the teaching?"
"Laughing", he said, "And dancing also." I think
people who attended this satsang still remember
that never any satsang has taken place in Lucknow.
And teaching was only laughing. Because when you
laugh, you try, when anybody laughs he has no mind,
no thought, no problem, no suffering.
David: So long as the laughter persists,
there is no mind.
Papaji: No mind. Yes, you try!
[laughter] You see, those people who don't
laugh, they have got minds. And they look very
serious and have many problems also. So they have
minds because for any problems, any sufferings, you
need mind. It's the mind that suffers, you see. So
you laugh away. If any problems come, you laugh
away, and it goes away, it runs away, it flies
David: So, laughter is a response to the
absence of pain and suffering. Would you say
Papaji: What do you say?
David: When all the mental problems go, then
spontaneously laughter arises?
Papaji: Of course, of course, yes, yes. Only
the man who has got rid of all his problems, he
laughs, he dances. He has only to dance and only to
laugh, you see. There was one saint who was living
on a top of a mountain. At midnight, a full moon,
and he started laughing and laughing. All the
people of the village woke up wondering, "What
happened to this monk?" All went on the top of the
hill and asked him, "Sir, what happened?"
"Oh, look! Look! Look! Look! There's a cloud!
There's a cloud!"
Many people see the clouds, but who laughs? It is
for the one who has no mind. Anything that he will
see it gives him occasion to laugh because he
becomes that thing at that time. Cloud is there and
moon is behind and this is enough to laugh.
David: So when you see the world, Papaji,
you think it's a big joke? Are you laughing at it
all the time?
Papaji: [laughter] I only joke, what
else is there to do? I don't study any scriptures,
I've never studied any sutras, nor do I refer to
any sutras. I make jokes only. [more
David: People in the West are being
continuously bombarded with spiritual advise. All
kinds of groups and teachers are saying, "Join us
and we will give you happiness." What exactly is
different about your message and why should anyone
believe it or listen to it?
Papaji: They advise the people to destroy
themselves. And I tell them to reject those
teachers and preachers. Come to me. I will give you
good advice. Don't listen to anybody's advice,
neither to my advice. Peep within you and listen to
your own voice. What do you hear? Don't listen to
any advice because any advice belongs to the past.
Some advisor has read this advice from some book,
or heard it from someone. So all advice belongs to
the past. So there is no advice to know thy Self.
So, don't listen to anybody's advice. You keep
quiet. This is the best advice. I give the advice,
"Keep quiet! Don't think and don't make any
effort." This is my advice. And if you follow it,
you have done very well for you and for everybody,
for all the beings of the world.
David: So following any advice except the
advice, "Be quiet" takes one away from the Self,
not towards it?
Papaji: Of course, of course, it has to
because it takes you to the past. Any advice that
you can mention, he has heard from someone or read
from some sutra. Any advice. Advisors has not shown
any good results and those advisors teach you to
fight, quarrel with the neighbours and other people
who don't belong to your church. Isn't it? You
follow their advice, and another teacher says, "You
follow my advice." So there is a quarrel, you
David: Papaji, you have often said that a
strong desire for enlightenment is necessary. Are
any other qualifications required?
Papaji: I don't think this is is a
qualification. It rises from within, somewhere in a
rare one. It rises from within and dances on the
bosom of the freedom itself, enjoys for sometime,
plays and then settles down. This is the desire.
because when the desire arises for any object you
are happy to meet the object. But this freedom is
neither an object nor subject. It arises from the
same Source, plays on the same Source, always, and
settles down in this Source. There is no problem
with the rise and fall. So it is the same thing,
whether it arises or not. People who have got the
desire for something else, they only call it, "the
desire for freedom will arise." I don't feel that
this will arise at all. I don't know if any desire
for freedom arose in me. I don't think so. It was
already there, you see. From childhood it was
David: You say that a strong desire for
enlightenment is necessary and at the same time you
are also telling everyone to "Be quiet!" How can
these two co-exist together? Can one have a strong
desire for freedom and at the same time have an
absolutely quiet mind?
Papaji: It's not the strength and weakness
of the desire. It is your weakness and strength,
how you are holding it. And you have something else
to do at the same time, therefore you are looking
at some other desires also. Therefore, that is the
strength of the other desires. So, if you check
those desires, which are stronger or which are
weaker, you check both desires weaker desire
and stronger desire this alone will remain
as it is, you see.
David: Do we need to believe in anything,
Papaji? Do we, for example, have to believe that
the Guru's words are correct? Do we we have to
believe that we can attain freedom? Do we have to
believe, "I am already free"? What is the minimum
number of things that we have to believe in?
Papaji: Yes, of course, you need faith.
Faith in your own Self. Faith that "I am free." If
you at all want to believe in faith, this is the
best faith you can have. "I am already free." When
you can have the faith that "I am suffering, I am
bound", why not to have the best faith, that "I am
free." What difference does it make?
David: So if one has the absolute conviction
that "I am free", then, sooner or later, that
conviction will mature into an experience. Is that
what you are saying?
Papaji: Not the experience, not the
experience. Experience is with something else. This
desire will vanish, this desire will vanish itself.
This desire for freedom will vanish. Knowing it
that it is freedom itself. But since you were
engaged in other desires, they have left you. So it
remained what it was.
David: Papaji, I heard you so on numerable
occasions that enlightenment is something which is
very easy to discover, and yet at the same time I
have also heard you say, also on numerable
occasions, that the number of people on this planet
who have fully woken up to their own reality can be
counted on one's fingers. If it is such and easy
thing to discover, why to so few succeed?
Papaji: It's so easy because you have not to
work for it. It is easy because you have not to go
anywhere, you have not to go anywhere. You have
stay quiet, therefore it is very easy. To attain
freedom is very easy, but it becomes difficult, the
people say it's difficult because they are
otherwise engaged. So to give up their attachments
to other things is difficult, not the freedom.
Freedom is not difficult. To disengage yourself
from other attachments may be difficult. That you
have to decide, once upon a time, now or next
David: In order to succeed, Papaji, is it
necessary to have a master who he himself is
Papaji: Absolutely! Absolutely! Otherwise,
how to know that you are on the right track?
David: Many people in the West, Papaji, have
spent a long, long time looking for a realised
master. What advice can you give them? How would
advise them to conduct a search for a fully
Papaji: They cannot find. They cannot find.
A true master cannot be seen by the eyes. He cannot
be seen by the eyes, therefore if they try to see
by their senses, they can't make a good judgement
because master is beyond the senses and beyond any
When you want to be free, this freedom itself is
there, which you need. But you do not depend on the
freedom itself and you don't understand the
language of freedom, the language of Emptiness, the
language of love, because you have sold yourself to
other objects. You don't understand this thing. So
if you are very, intensely in want of this thing
for freedom and you don't understand, so this
freedom, out of compassion, takes a physical form
to speak to you in your own tongue so that you
understand what it is freedom.
And then it teaches that "I am your own Self." And
then it enters your own Self and becomes one. This
is the role of the teacher, to point out to you, "I
am your Self. I am That itself." This is the role
of the teacher. For sometime It becomes a teacher
to just apprise you of the fact that you are That.
Because you don't listen, therefore He becomes a
teacher. That becomes a teacher to tell you, "You
are That itself." And then you see that teacher and
you is one.
David: Papaji, Ramana Maharshi agreed with
you in that we have no capacity to determine who is
and who is not enlightened, but at the same time he
did say that there were two useful clues which one
should look for when one was trying to determine
who was enlightened and who was not. He said that
if we meet someone who deals with everyone around
him with full equality and if we feel peace in his
presence, then we may take these two signs to be
legitimate indications that the man may be
enlightened. Do you agree with this?
Papaji: Of course I absolutely agree. So you
need not ask a question because you would be misled
by the statement or talks of the teachers. You
would be misled. And if you feel that your mind is
quiet and you feel some kind of happiness and peace
that can be the outer symptoms of a teacher.
And only those people who are intensely devoted to
freedom, they can only sense it, not others. So
when you go to a teacher, you keep quiet, you need
not give any question. Don't expect any answer.
Just see, sit quiet and feel if your mind is quiet
or not. If it is quiet then this is the man who can
teach you. This is the man who is worth staying
David: Papaji, you are telling people to sit
in satsang with a realised master. When the Guru
dies and physical satsang with him is no longer
possible, what is the disciple to do next?
Papaji: If he is a disciple, he will not
agree that the master dies. The master was not the
body. The body dies. But the master never was a
body. All the bodies will die. So the death of the
body doesn't matter for the disciple. Master is
something else. And that master is always seated
within in the Heart of the disciple. So he doesn't
need anything else, he knows perfectly well, "I
don't miss my master. He is here and now, always
with me." So this is the relationship between the
master and the disciple.
David: So if the disciple has the attitude
that, "The Guru is not the body which just died, he
is my own Self", then with that attitude, if he is
not already realised, he can realise the Self after
the master's death?
Papaji: He should not need, his work is
done. Why should he look for another thing? Why
should he look? To look for, you need a body and a
mind. So when the master died, he took away along
with him his body and mind. That was the teacher.
Any teacher who dies, if he has not taken away his
body and mind, that teacher is not to be
David: Papaji, can you please describe your
own enlightenment for us? In particular, can you
tell us what role your own master, Ramana Maharshi,
played in it?
Papaji: It's a long story.
David: Will you tell a short version?
Papaji: It's a long story. How to begin?
From childhood, but I can start from when I entered
the ashram. I had entered the ashram and then all
was quiet. All was quiet. This man is quiet, the
incarnation of silence itself. Not speaking to
anyone. But then it was a tremendous silence. I
never saw anybody so silent. So the people who go
there, their minds didn't enter the hall. He sits
quiet and silence was there.
So what he taught was to, "Keep quiet, keep quiet",
but many people didn't understand. He was speaking
simply, but no one still has understood what he was
saying. He would say how to be free, how to get
enlightenment. Sometime he would say that, "You
need Grace." But most of the time he said in Tamil,
"Summa iru" which means, "Keep quiet". But now
people do not understand the meaning of this, but
it struck me, the meaning.
iru" later on I asked for, and then he asked me
what are you doing? You don't do, but I kept "Summa
iru" means "Keep quiet". I use this word often. The
best teaching is "Keep quiet". And if it is very
strong and comes from that quietness itself with
authority, immediately it works, you see. It has to
work. It must come from an authority. If any mans
says "Keep quiet", it will not work. It will not
David: Can you tell us exactly what happened
on the day you finally got it when you sat with
Ramana Maharshi? What exactly happened?
I was a devotee of Krishna from childhood, so that
Krishna was even manifesting in physical form. I
could see with the senses as I see other things. So
much attached. After spending some four days in Adi
Annamalai, on the other side of the mountain,
Arunachala, then the Maharshi asked me where I had
been and I said, "On the other side, staying by
myself and playing with Krishna."
"Oh, very good. You have been playing with
"Yes sir, I have been playing with Krishna. He is
"Do you see him now?"
"No sir, I don't."
So he said, "What appears and disappears is not
real, is not real. The seer remained. You saw him,
he disappeared. You remained, the same seer. Now
you are here also, the seer remained. Now, find out
who the seer is."
So it was a word only. It was a word, but then it
struck me. I became the seer. I became the
So whatever word, I often say in satsang also,
"Whatever you hear, don't hold the word, but go to
the root of the word. Then instantly you will get
it." When you say the word "freedom", for example,
the desire for freedom, you immediately go to
freedom itself. And when someone speaks about some
other object, "Let us go to lunch", you speak of
food. So you are one with the food. Only why have
trouble with the freedom?
When we speak of freedom, we must be one with
freedom, smell freedom, enjoy freedom. But this
doesn't happen. For other things, everything else,
we understand that the word takes us to that
Many people in the West, Papaji, will have done
some form of meditation. Many of them will have
practised very intensively for many, many years. I
have heard you say on many occasions that doing
mediation will not bring about enlightenment. Can
you please explain why you think this is so?
Papaji: First of all, meditation is just to
fatigue your body and mind so that you get fed up
and find that there maybe something else. So he
will be in search of a teacher and he will not tell
him to meditate. He will tell him some unique
method. He will tell him to, "Keep quiet". He will
not tell him to do anything. Doing and not doing is
not the work of a teacher. It is the for the
preachers to say, "You have to do this and you have
not to do this thing." Teacher has no teaching, no
do's and no don'ts. He tells you, "Keep quiet",
that's all. There can be nothing else that a
teacher can say.
This is going to work. This is the best teaching
that a teacher could give. If you listen to him, as
I was saying, if he says, "Keep quiet", not only do
you hear but you become quietness. What is the
You see in satsang, listening also, when I tell
them, "Enquire, investigate, ask "Who am I?"", and
they say, "We can't do it, we can't do it. We have
been doing but we are in trouble, in tension,
headaches." So they are otherwise engaged. So
therefore, some rare one gets it. I do not know
why. I cannot give you anything on my own, why it
is not working.
If you keep quiet, you will fall in love with this.
After all, everybody needs happiness and peace,
whatever they are doing. There can be no happiness,
no peace, no love, no beauty anywhere else, in any
other object except this, here and now. Therefore,
you don't need any meditation. Because you need
mind to meditate. You need mind to meditate,
therefore the result of any process has to be
mental. Then you need body, such and such posture,
hands to planted this way, mudra to be kept this
way. So it is going to be physical. So any physical
activity gives you physical results, mental
results. Any good idea that attracts you, it sounds
good and you follow it, that could be mental or
intellectual ideas, then the result will be
intellectual. So, shun all these ideas, physical,
mental also spiritual also. so if you get rid of
all the notions that you have heard and ideas, then
you are Emptiness Itself.
David: Many people have tried to be quiet,
to be still and they haven't succeeded. What are
they doing wrong?
Papaji: Give up the intention to keep quiet.
If they can't keep quiet, then give up the
intention to keep quiet. Then what will happen?
David: You often ask people to ask
themselves, "Who am I?". Why does this work when
everything else fails?
Papaji: Because this is not a method. This
is not a method. Other methods are clipping the
branches, but this is striking at the root, the
root of the mind, not the branches. Branches will
grow again. So this is striking at the root,
uprooting the mind itself. This enquiry uproots the
mind, when you enquire, "Who am I?". So it strikes
at the root of the mind. There's no mind at all
with this enquiry.
"I" is the mind and now you are questioning, "I" is
questioning to "I" itself. No one has ever
questioned, "Who am I? Who are you? Who is he? Who
is she?" "Who am I?", no one ever has questioned.
Therefore, it is the first time one has asked, and
it is striking at the root of all creation, not the
person. It is striking at the root of the creation,
then there will be no creation at all and no
creator, also, and no beings also. It strikes at
David: Many people have asked themselves
"Who am I?" and didn't get the right answer. Mind
still remained. Should they keep on asking till
they get the right answer?
Papaji: No, only once. Only once. It has
struck at the right place. It has struck there at
the right point when you say, "Who am I?". Don't
expect any answer. He must get rid of the
expectation or intention for any answer. So
therefore, this question is not to get any answer.
This question is like this, like a river merging
into the ocean. So it doesn't go into the ocean to
remain as a river. It has merged now, like this
enquiry, "Who am I?" is merging into the divinity,
Self, Emptiness Itself. So he has to keep quiet and
see what happens.
But after this enquiry he must not wait for the
answer. So if he has asked this question, after
having finished this question, that is the answer.
Immediately, this question is finished, "Who am
I?", after "I" it has ended. So I make a diagram
and drawing also. After this, what is this after
"I"? So you become That where "I" has discharged
into. It has to be Emptiness.
David: Papaji, you frequently say, "Truth
exalts a holy person", and you also say that a holy
person is one whose mind is spotless, pure,
immaculate. And yet at the same time you never ask
anyone to make their minds spotless, pure or
immaculate. How can Truth exalt us if we don't do
anything to make our minds pure, spotless,
Papaji: You cannot, because the mind itself
is dust. So you cannot clean the dust with the
dust. So if you have a mirror and it's a dusty
mirror and you want to clean it and you bring some
kind of dust and put another layer of dust on it.
This is cleaning the mind, adding another dust. So
anything you do, any other method, you want to
clean the mind with some yoga or with some
meditation or whatever it is. So it putting more
dust on the mind. So what I say, "Keep quiet", is
removing the mirror itself, so that no dust can
alight anywhere. This is holiness, what I meant, so
that the Truth exalts the holiness. And now you are
holy. Remove the mirror. If you have a mirror, your
face will be reflected. So this is a spot. With
this spot you are not holy. It's a reflection. So
how to remove the reflection? If you throw away the
mirror, then this reflection will return back to
your original face. So if you throw away the mind
for one second, just one second, this thought of
holiness will reveal itself, merge back into the
holiness. Therefore, Truth exalts a holy person.
Therefore, you have to be holy. How to be holy?
Remove the mirror, remove all reflections which you
were seeing in the objects, which is the dust.
David: To the people who are watching this
program, Papaji, can you tell them what is
preventing them from being aware of who they are,
right now, at this instant while they are
Papaji: They may not be watching me. They
may be watching something else. You know what they
are saying. [laughter] I would rather that
you don't watch me, you watch something else
David: Most people, Papaji, they think that
enlightenment is something which can be achieved
after a long or arduous preparation. What is wrong
with this belief?
Papaji: This is wrong from the first instant
[laughter] This is a belief. Why should
they believe? Any belief is wrong. Why should you
believe? Do you need to believe that you are David
Godman? You are very sure about it? Why ask
Madhukar, "Please tell me where is David Godman. He
was living in this house."?
He will say, "There you are and this is your
place." How did you get lost on the way? You must
have gone with someone else. So we go generally
with someone else, some other idea, some other
thing. And we are stuck with these things and
forget that we have to return home. Yes.
David: I think that this is a major problem
in the West, Papaji. People will not be convinced
that they are ready for realisation right now. They
all think they have to do something.
Papaji: Of course. Doing. That's what I
hear. Therefore, all the yoga teachers are very
successful in the West. Yoga teachers. I find even
yoga centres in small villages. There are five
thousand yoga teachers in Europe. I have met some.
they are yoga teachers and they are doing very
well. I said, "What are you teaching?"
They say, "How to keep young up to ninety years
old." That's what their aim is and yoga can fulfil
this. Yoga is generally, there are many books of
yoga them and you can see them in the book stalls
on the foot paths. Yoga for Sex you must
have seen. So yoga is mostly to upkeep the body,
the physical body to keep well.
David: Papaji, many people experience, what
they call, happiness as a result of indulging in
physical pleasures. What is the difference between
the happiness they experience and the happiness
which you know to be your own nature? Is there is
Papaji: Happiness with the...?
David: Many people experience, what they
call, happiness as a result of indulging in
physical pleasures. What is the difference between
the happiness they experience and the happiness
which you know to be your own Self? Is there is
Papaji: No, no. To be your own Self is the
only happiness. All other forms of happiness are to
fatigue yourself so that you can find out that this
is not happiness. Because after that, if you again
repeat that same process, it means that place or
thing has not given you happiness, therefore it
wants to be repeated.
David: I'm not talking about processes,
Papaji, I'm talking about the result. If I am
suddenly very, very happy as a result of doing
something, is my happiness the same as your
happiness, or is it different?
Papaji: Happiness is One. Happiness is One,
but when you attribute it to something which is not
abiding, then it is different. "Your" happiness,
when you say "my" happiness and "your" happiness,
then it is not that happiness which I point at. I
point at just happiness, not "my" happiness and not
"your" happiness. And the difference only is that
you are using "my" and "your". If you remove "you"
and "me", then there is no difference.
David: What about states such as ecstasy and
bliss? Are they mind experiences or are they from
Papaji: Ecstasy is a state of mind. For some
time it will stay and then it will again dwindle
and return back. Many people get into ecstatic
states listen to a poem, to poetry, some singing
songs, or some with other things, they get into
ecstasy, but it goes away. it depends upon the
But bliss, when you have bliss, it is not That
also. not even bliss, but bliss can be attributed
to dawn. Before the sunrise, there is a dawn, and
you know very well that now sun will arise. Sun is
not yet there but something shows now it is
dawn. So when you feel some bliss and you are not
attributing it to something else, you are now
focused. Seeing the dawn, now it is the east side,
sun will rise. So your focusing is entirely on the
east, on one particular point where you see the
dawn, because dawn is not in the west. Therefore,
when the bliss is coming, you go on focusing on the
bliss and so that you become one with the bliss.
And then this bliss also rejected. This also is a
Do we have to reject it consciously or will it
Papaji: It will happen automatically.
David: Because some people say that bliss is
an obstacle to realisation and that the final
experience is peace and stillness.
Papaji: This comes under yoga. In some yoga
they mention bliss. This is one of the koshas
physical, then sensual, then mental, then
intellectual and then blissful. Sheaths they call
it, koshas. First there is annamaya kosha, then
pranamaya kosha, manomaya kosha, vijnanamaya kosha
and finally anandamaya kosha. These are the walls
and then if you reject these, you are not to hold
on to bliss, also. And if you can reject and don't
get attached to this thing one by one, remove the
physical body, remove the mental body, remove the
prana body, and remove the intellectual body also.
When the intellect is working, you stop the
intellect, then bliss will come. Bliss will come
when the intellect is not working. Even if bliss
comes, don't get attached. Most yogis get attached
to this thing. This is from the yoga method. Yoga
method, they describe koshas. And then you get
attached to this last kosha, but don't get attached
permanently. Don't give up, stay quiet, and then it
will become That. And mind is now absorbing the
bliss, and mind is now becoming bliss. Now, it is
not for the bliss to be rejected. Now, from the
other side, beyond mind, no-mind, freedom itself is
coming to receive you and embrace you. So then only
no one can reject the bliss.
So you have done very well if you feel the bliss,
bliss of Atman [bliss of the Self], is
called Atmananda. Then it will take the form of
Atman itself. Then everything has gone and even
that is not final somehow. "No-mind" is now still
alive. It is related to mind still.
of the page
fathomless this is. Then your work begins here,
which is going to be very beautiful work. Now,
before you have done well, and your task is over.
Now this is the task of beyond. Now beyond is
taking hold of you and revealing itself more and
more, every moment, a different beauty, a different
love, a different form even. Different form so that
you are always engaged with It and It is always
engaged with It. So That, you can not get rid of,
even if the body leaves. So That can be described
as the Ultimate, or "Ultimateness".
David: Papaji, no-mind, silent or still mind
and dead mind, what is the difference between
Papaji: Silent mind is to temporarily keep
quiet. Simply the suppression of the objects in the
mind. You keep quiet many times. Somebody wants
something from you and you tell him, "I don't have"
or you are not willing to give. There is silence
for some time. A still mind, stillness of mind is
also temporary. For some meditation, concentration
for a long time will result in a still mind. When
you're mind is still like the flame of the candle,
when again the breeze will come, the candle will
again flicker out. If any other thought will come
again, the stillness will be washed away, with the
wind of the thought.
Now no-mind, I am hearing this question for the
first time. It has never been asked to me by any
person from India or from the West. It has never
been asked so I am very happy. For the first time
to deal with this question.
So no-mind. First of all, to speak about no-mind,
we have to see what is mind. So mind is something
we'll start from consciousness. When the
consciousness wants to know itself, about itself,
"Who am I?" As you are there, yet you need a mirror
sometimes to appreciate your make-up. You want to
see yourself, then the mirror will reflect.
So from there arise, in the consciousness there is
a wave to know. Consciousness asking itself, to
know about consciousness itself. This wave is now
rising. Wave in the ocean is now rising. So that
wave now becomes "I". It separates. The same
consciousness, it has now separated from the
consciousness as "I". So when our mind is left
alone, "I" is all this manifestation, what you see
is "I" only. "I" must be there when you see a tree,
when you see a mountain, a river, men, animals.
This is "I" only. You need "I".
So this "I" has now rejected everything. "I" alone
is there. It cannot return or go back. It has
decided that this is the desire for freedom
it wants to return to it's original place. So the
desire to go back is no more there. So this "I"
which arises from the consciousness is now
returning to consciousness and this decision has
become no-mind now. "I" has gone and this "I" was
mind. And this "I" is now rejected. That,
in-between "I" and consciousness, this in-between
is called no-mind. This in-between will merge into
consciousness itself and the in-between will become
As we have this cup [picking up a cup from the
table]. And inside there is ether, space. On
the outside there is also space. We call it "inner
space" and this is "outer space". Why? Because this
form is called "cup" name, form, length,
breadth, diameter. So when this name and form is
removed, this "inner" ether and this mahat, which
means "greater" ether, become One. They were always
One. This is freedom.
There was trouble because there was "inside" and
"outside". So from this point of view, the "inner"
space was separate from the "outer" space. Why?
Because of name and form, and this name and form is
"I". When this "I" goes, this wall is removed and
This becomes This. Still remembrance will be there.
Remembrance of no-mind is there because you are
coming from mind. So now I have no-mind. So
gradually, slowly, for a long time, how it happens,
I do not know, this no-mind merges back into
beyond. So now, you no-mind to work on your own
accord. You are simply being graced and picked up
and obey what It is doing. You are not doing
anything, doership is gone. Mind is no longer and
all these other functions of the mind are no longer
there. So you stay this time for a stipulated
period as has been chartered early. This life will
stay for the rest of the time.
And some people cannot stand the shock of freedom
for more than twenty-one days, that is stated in
the sacred books. For more than twenty-one days,
they can't stand this happiness. If some
middle-class man wins a Derby Lottery for one
billion dollars, he doesn't know what to do. some
people have heart attacks. So much happiness, so
this happiness takes away the body itself, but He
is liberated, it doesn't matter, now or tomorrow.
Body is not in question, but some people can live
only to benefit other people. So this benefit is
not coming from some person. Going back to your
previous question, it is coming direct from
consciousness and that person, that teacher knows
that it is not "me". "I am simply picked up to
speak and it is not "me" who is speaking." If it
knows that "someone" is speaking on Him, it is
arrogance, egoistic. It will not work. So if you
have that experience, then it's not your problem
what you are speaking, and who has benefited and
who has not benefited, who comes to you and who
doesn't come to you. It remains the same.
David: Has consciousness ordered you to
teach, Papaji, is that what you are saying.
Papaji: There's no "you". "You" and "she"
has become one. I cannot say if "she" has ordered
David: But some power is compelling you to
give satsang, yes?
Papaji: Some power is like this thing: now I
want to drink water so I say, "Poonjaji, pick up
the glass." Yes sir, I've picked it up. "Put it in
the mouth." I put it in the mouth. "Now drink it."
I drink it. It's like this thing.
[laughter] What difference is there. Now I
have not commanded the hand. It's all me, you see.
People who are benefited and not "others". Hand is
my own, my stomach is my own and the requirement
for water is my own. Who are the others? Who is
Who is, first of all, ignorant? I don't believe.
Who wants to be free? I don't believe. Who is not
free? I don't believe. So they are joking. They are
saying "I am in trouble. I am bound." So I am also
joking. I say "You are not bound, you are
"It takes a long time?"
"No, no. Now itself."
All of this is a joke, so I take it as a joke, you
see. [laughter] "I am bound", is it not a
joke because they don't show me the chains, nor the
fetters, nor the prison. What kind of jail is it?
They simply say. So it's a big joke and I enjoy
this joke. [laughter]
David: So when you look at people in
satsang, Papaji, you don't see unenlightened people
at all, you only see enlightened people? Is that
what you are trying to tell me?
Papaji: [long pause] Oh, it's a
difficult question, but I have to answer it because
I answer all questions. First of all, I absorb them
all and give them a seat in my Heart, in my Heart.
As the lover gives a seat to the beloved in his
Heart, always seated. So I open here. "You all sit
in my Heart and we will speak together. You are not
apart from me, you are within the Heart. You are in
my Heart. let us speak." We speak just like on the
stage. We speak like this.
David: Grace is clearly flowing during your
satsangs, Papaji. Do you project it consciously,
does it flow from you or through you, or is it
simply there all the time?
Papaji: From Grace only. Grace has to come
from Grace, no? Wave has to come from the ocean.
Grace has to come from Grace, the ocean of
David: It seems to flow very strongly in
your proximity, though.
David: It seems to flow very strongly in
Papaji: I don't know. [laughter]
David: I've heard you say Papaji, that "I
know many different tricks to wake people up. If
one doesn't work, then I use another."
David: What are these tricks and how do you
Papaji: One trick is "Keep quiet!" "Keep
quiet!" Second trick is, "Do not think at all."
Third trick is, "Don't activate your mind." Fourth
trick is, "You come to me and I will teach you yoga
and I will show you shirshasana." You stand infront
of me and I will tell you, "You stay here, head
down, feet up, this is called shirshasana." I know
it so I'll show them. And then ask me, "I want
freedom." And then, at that time, in that posture,
I will tell you, I will tell you how to gain
freedom. I will say, "Keep quiet!"
[laughter] Like this, you keep quiet. So at
that time they will listen, because now they are in
trouble. So when everybody is troubled so much with
the enjoyment of the senses, thy come to me. And
now, this man is in trouble because he is upside
down. Then he will come and he will listen to me.
And some people who are upside down, they come to
me and it works this way. So, I know many tricks
and I have used them in the West also.
If straight away, somebody comes... mostly, mostly
there are good people who are coming to Lucknow. I
have no problem with them. Here there are people
from all over the world, who are coming for the
first time to India, and to Lucknow. And I am very
happy with them. And they listen to me, what I say
to them. They listen to me as a father, as one of
the elders, one of their brothers, who gives them
good, good advice, so that they don't suffer from
any pain physical, mental or any kind of
pain. So I give them this trick. And most people
like it very well because they have got nothing to
do now and simply get happiness and peace.
Who doesn't want happiness? Who doesn't want peace?
Who doesn't want love? Who doesn't want beauty?
Everybody is interested, so they listen to me. And
I am happy that everyone is benefited. And they
return to their respective countries as ambassadors
from this city of Lucknow. And they send their
friends. And then they they go and they send
others, so therefore thousands of people have come
here. And there is no complaint about it because
there are no charges, and there is no ashram, there
is no appeal for funds. I am living in my own
house. I belong to this place. For fifty years I
have been living here. Some years I have spent
abroad, travelling the world, and now my old age
has compelled me to stay on here. That's why you
are here. Otherwise, I would be going to your
doors. I didn't trouble anyone, you see. So now
people are coming here and I am very happy that
some message of peace is being spread, which we
need very badly.
Two thousand six hundreds years ago it happened and
it was India who sent the messengers of peace all
over the world, in the form of Mahendra and Mitra.
The Emperor Ashoka's own son and daughter, and
other people have gone. They went to China, Japan
and Korea and other countries, right from Burma,
including Afghanistan. So there was tremendous
peace in the world. So let us resolve again to send
this message of peace, again from the same place.
Buddha also belonged to this state. I am very happy
that he belonged to this state. And again the
message is being sent from this holy state. So this
is all, you can have peace in the world and you can
enlighten yourself. And this enlightenment itself
is the message.
When you go back you may speak or you may keep
quiet. It will work. Your friends will ask you,
"What happened?", and you keep quiet. A these final
teachings,gain they will ask you. Just keep quiet,
that's all you need to do.
David: Papaji, many people have heard you
say, "I have not given my final teachings to
anyone." What are these final teachings and why are
you not giving them out?
Papaji: They are not worthy of them. Nobody
is worthy to receive it now. Because according to
my experience, everybody has proved arrogant and
egotistic. With the result that many people are
suffering. Many people are suffering. Now I am
making another trial, just recently. I will see
Therefore, I don't think anybody is worthy to
receive it. You have to prove holiness to be
Instead of helping people, why should you trouble
people first of all? This is arrogance. I have seen
that many people are troubled. When I sent, I only
sent a message, only sent a message and the
messenger becomes king. King sends a messenger for
some reason to another state. So I sent this
message but this messenger has become the king
himself. Yes, I have seen in many cases. What to do
them? So, unworthiness, or I am too generous. I do
not read people enough. Either it should be my
mistake, because I think that everybody is good.
Therefore, I speak the Truth, but the Truth will
reject them, you see. Only a holy person can
receive this, and they have to be worthy to receive
the teaching and this worthiness will only be
enabling you to receive the Truth, otherwise it
will enter into the head, intellectually. It's
enough for the West to understand intellectually.
They would be very happy. That's all the West wants
to know through intellect. But who knows "beyond"?
There is something "beyond". Therefore everybody
says, "I don't understand, I don't understand." So
then I say, "You don't need to understand at
There was one man, my good friend in Paris. A
Krishnamutist, a follower of Krishnamurti for 35
years. He was travelling wherever Krishnamurti went
Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland and
England. Wherever he was going, he was travelling
and he studied all the books, up to date, he has
studied this thing.
So somehow, he came o see me also, in Saanen, and
he was saying, "I don't understand."
"You have not to understand. Certain things are not
to be understood. You have to be it."
He said, "No, you have to understand. And
Krishnamurti, I also don't understand."
"Krishnamurti", I said, "you need not understand
"Because I am at point A and Krishnamurti is at
point B and then when I shift from A and go to B,
then he shifts to C. When I go to B he goes to C. I
don't even understand Krishnaji. And now, I am in
contact with Poonjaji."
So there was a lot of talk about Poonjaji and
Krishnaji, even in Saanen. So their viewpoint was
differing. Some said that "Poonjaji speaks like
Krishnaji. And he removes the concepts, he also
removes he concepts of the mind." They say, "Only
unless you empty the pot, you cannot be
enlightened, and Poonjaji also says this."
So one man who had listened and he was a lecturer
on behalf of Krishnaji. He said, "No, no, there is
a lot difference between Krishnaji and Poonjaji.
That difference is that Krishnaji removes the pot
and makes it empty and Poonjaji breaks the pot
So that is the difference, and that you cannot
understand. You can understand only when the cup is
empty or when it is full, but when the cup does not
exist, what are you going to understand? So what I
say is, "The mind itself does not exist, so you
don't need to understand." Immediately, you have to
see and feel, what It is when I speak.
Mind itself is only a notion, only a notion. Get
rid of this notion. Mind is past, also. Get rid of
the past and come to the present and then I will
tell you what to do next. Come at least to the
David: Many people who attend your satsangs,
Papaji, have waking up or enlightenment
experiences, but after a few weeks or a few months
they come back and say, "I lost it." What is
Papaji: Again, this is unworthiness.
David: Most of the time you blame these
people for losing it. You say, "It's your
Papaji: Yes, yes. They lost it because they
have not taken care of it, they have not taken care
of it. I say to them, "When I give you a diamond,
it's enough for you, for the whole of this, the
whole of this life. You take care of it or sell it.
Sell it in Washington or on Wall Street. You will
get 30 billion dollars for this thing. This is a
diamond, quite a new diamond. Sell it. 30 billions
dollars is enough for you. You can do anything
throughout your life. And then when you go to the
fish market, buy fish and hand over this thing
diamond." And the fishwoman also doesn't know what
this is. She uses it's weight on the scale. So it
should not be passed onto unworthy people. And they
misuse it. I cannot differentiate between all those
people who come, I tell them the Truth straight
away, and they are happy also. But then they misuse
Again they come back and say, "My girlfriend
separated from me. And then I phoned her and she
came. So I am happy. So this must be the result of
freedom. And then when I went back, again she left
me. Again, I am in trouble." So all those people
tell me these stories.
David: But, Papaji, when people leave you,
you never tell them, "Take care of this diamond
I've given you. Look after it." You only blame them
when they come back for having lost it.
Papaji: No, not all of them. Some are very
beautiful people and they write to me. "I am
keeping it. This precious gift, I am still keeping.
But not only keeping it, I am distributing it to
others also. And even after distributing, I see
that the same amount is with me. It doesn't
decrease. What a gift you have given me!" Not all
of them lose it. But all of them will not be
benefited, but I want that everybody should be
benefited by this thing. But, the results here are
very good because I look at the other ashrams also
and I know their results. But here, the results
which are happening to someone somehow are quite
satisfactory. I am very satisfied with this
David: One final question, Papaji. All your
life you have been trying to express,
unsuccessfully, your own inner experience. Please
make one more attempt for us. Who are you? What are
you? What is your deepest and innermost experience
of your own Self?
Papaji: A very easy reply is, "I am your own
Self." I am your own Self, and this is the Truth.
How can it be that I am myself only? I am your own
Self and the Self of all the beings that exist and
that have to exist.
David: Thank-you very much, Papaji.
Papaji: Thank-you Mr Godman, Mr David.
Thank-you. Thank-you everybody.
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