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ramana maharshi | who am I? | guru | self-enquiry | spiritual instruction | wisdom | words | silence | daily talks | reality | padam – the formless self
abide in the self | arunachala | annamalai swami | self alone is real | swami rama tirtha | real self | i am that | practical freedom | sun of self
h.w.l. poonja | freedom now | remembering | meeting ramana | who is aware of consciousness? | who are you? | words | no practice | final abode
eternal rest | lion's roar | peace is always everywhere | plunge into eternity | i am eternal self | summa iru | wisdom | here and now in lucknow
ma anandamayi | words | old tcheng | sayings | siddharameshwar maharaj | beyond nothing | perfection of material science | master key | non-action | self
nisargadatta maharaj | words | a great maharashtrian jnani | self-knowledge and self-realisation | meet the sage | detachment | awareness | who am I?
life | "i am" | all is a dream | guru and disciple | ranjit maharaj | meeting siddharameshwar | everything is nothing | forget everything | death is not true
real and unreal | u.g. krishnamurti | natural state | words | remembering | no separation | nothing to understand | chief joseph | way of the warrior
advaita | vedanta | devikalottara | supreme wisdom | atma sakshatkar | direct awareness of the self | vichara mani mala | jewel garland of enquiry
avadhuta gita | ever-free | ashtavakra gita | purest expression of truth | ribhu gita | heart | wisdom | bhagavad gita | essence | the song celestial
adi shankaracharya | atma bodha | aparokshanubhuti | dakshinamurti strotram | dasasloki | nirvana shatkam | drik drisya viveka | vivekachudamani
seng tsan | faith mind | gaudapada | mandukya karika | katha upanishad | death as teacher | yoga vasistha | dispassion | seeker's behaviour | essence
ramakant maharaj | reality has nothing to do with words | lama guendune rinpoché | free and easy | ellam ondre | all is one | william samuel | now

H. W. L.  POONJA

SUMMA  IRU



Let there be peace and love among all beings of the universe. OM Shanti, Shanti, Shanti.

INTERVIEW  BY  DAVID  GODMAN


AVID :  Papaji, we are trying to make a film about your teachings. How can we make a film when you say you have no teachings?


Papaji: To have any teaching is preaching. Teacher has no teaching, no method, no way. To know thy own Self, you don't need any teaching. What you really are, always you are That itself. No one is going to teach you. You have to realise who you are, here and now, in this moment.

David: Papaji, you're telling people to look in a particular direction. You're saying, "Look towards your own Self." Isn't telling people this a teaching?

Papaji: No direction. [laughter] If they don't look in any direction... Looking in any direction is abiding to any direction, to any object, so they get lost. So if they do away with all directions, no concept of of any direction in their mind, then they will know what they have been really, and they will know that they are That itself: which they have been always and would be.

David: Do you regard yourself as a Guru, Papaji?

Papaji: No, not at all! [laughter] I never declare, "I am a Guru."

David: But what about all these people who are coming to you Papaji, the ones who think they're your devotees? Are they your devotees?

Papaji: When there is no Guru there is no question of any devotees. They come to see me, I welcome them. Whosoever comes, I welcome them. If they don't come, I wish them good luck. And when they leave me I say, "Farewell. Be happy wherever you are."

David: Papaji, you encourage everyone who comes to you to look for their own Self. What motivates you to do this?



Papaji: My own happiness, because they're sleeping and they're suffering when the treasure is within them. And they're suffering. Everybody, all the human beings of this world are suffering and trying to find peace and happiness in the objects. And this has turned out in the end, pain and suffering. There's no object in the mind, no person, no thing, no concept that can return you to happiness and peace of mind. So I just tell them, I give them this information: "Don't look here, there, anywhere. Peace is within you and within the Heart of all beings. So you keep quiet, don't look anywhere, don't allow your mind to abide anywhere, and you will see that It is peace, happiness itself. That is the fundamental truth. And every being in the world is happiness itself."

David: Papaji, I think that most people who come to see you would say that you are giving out something more than information. Almost everyone who comes to you feels that there is some power, some Grace in your presence and that this power and this Grace enables them to find out who they really are. Do you have any comment on this?

Papaji: Definitely, I am pointing out at their own Self which is the fountain of the Grace, of love, of beauty. Here arises the love and peace also. I just point out to them, "Look within yourself for one second. And you will not search, not find, but you will see that you are peace itself. I just point out, you see. People who are sleeping, it's better to wake them up because in the dream they are suffering and in the dream, this is only a projection what they are suffering for, seeing a tiger, a robber pouncing on them, but actually this is only a projection. So stop all the projections and you will see that the dream was a dream, it was not a reality. So whatever you see, it's a dream. Wherever there is an object, wherever there is a seer and the seen, or objects and subjects, and if you get rid of it somehow, of this relationship between object and subject, what's left?

David:
When people come to see you and you look at them and they say, "Papaji, I'm suffering", do you feel compassion for them, and when in your presence they wake up, do you rejoice? Do you have any reactions like these?

Papaji: I do feel compassion because what else is there for me? I have compassion for all beings who are suffering and who are dreaming. I just tell them, "Wake up, my dear friends, my dear children, wake up. There's no suffering at all. It's only a projection of your mind and which has produced the suffering and you are dreaming only. Wake up from the dream and all the suffering will end."

David: Can we talk about something different, Papaji? Could you tell us the story of the Japanese professor with one lung who couldn't stop laughing. I think that is a very good story about your teaching. Can you tell the whole story?

Papaji:
[Papaji laughs] Somehow he came to know about me from Japan. He came to see me and I was living in my house and he asked the people downstairs, "I want to see the master." So this man was a zen master. Himself was a zen master and a professor in some University in Japan. So he said, "I cannot go up the stairs." The other people said, "Papaji is very busy. Some other people are also there." Then he said, "Okay. Slowly if you give me some help, and I will go up." There are not many steps and they are not very high.

So, somehow he came and I made him sit infront of me, but what was going on? Only laughing. Only laughing. So he was of Zen background. I was not teaching. Only laughing and everybody was laughing and there were people from about 30 or 32 countries. Westerners and Indians also. So they were laughing and then he also started laughing. So he laughed and laughed. There was no particular talk. So then there was a time for the lunch. And lunch was on the ground floor. So everybody came down and lunch was served to him. Then he spoke to some people. He was on one lung and one lung was taken away, and "the doctors told me that you have not to laugh and you have not to go up anytime." And when he came up and down and when he laughed, he said, "I thought my other lung has been replaced. I feel." And then he was feeling actually that his lung was replaced.

And he was all the time laughing and laughing. He didn't have any questions. So, when he returned back, he said, "I will invite you to Japan." But I said I am going to Venezuela, then he said, "I will send one of my students, not only will I send you a ticket and invitation, but I will send you one of my best students." And his student came once I returned from Venezuela and some other countries. Then he said that when he returned from Lucknow and people asked him, "What have you brought from Lucknow? What is the teaching of Poonjaji?" Then he started laughing. "What is the teaching?" "Laughing", he said, "And dancing also." I think people who attended this satsang still remember that never any satsang has taken place in Lucknow. And teaching was only laughing. Because when you laugh, you try, when anybody laughs he has no mind, no thought, no problem, no suffering.

David: So long as the laughter persists, there is no mind.

Papaji: No mind. Yes, you try! [laughter] You see, those people who don't laugh, they have got minds. And they look very serious and have many problems also. So they have minds because for any problems, any sufferings, you need mind. It's the mind that suffers, you see. So you laugh away. If any problems come, you laugh away, and it goes away, it runs away, it flies away.

David: So, laughter is a response to the absence of pain and suffering. Would you say that?

Papaji: What do you say?

David: When all the mental problems go, then spontaneously laughter arises?

Papaji: Of course, of course, yes, yes. Only the man who has got rid of all his problems, he laughs, he dances. He has only to dance and only to laugh, you see. There was one saint who was living on a top of a mountain. At midnight, a full moon, and he started laughing and laughing. All the people of the village woke up wondering, "What happened to this monk?" All went on the top of the hill and asked him, "Sir, what happened?"

"Oh, look! Look! Look! Look! There's a cloud! There's a cloud!"

Many people see the clouds, but who laughs? It is for the one who has no mind. Anything that he will see it gives him occasion to laugh because he becomes that thing at that time. Cloud is there and moon is behind and this is enough to laugh.

David: So when you see the world, Papaji, you think it's a big joke? Are you laughing at it all the time?

Papaji: [laughter] I only joke, what else is there to do? I don't study any scriptures, I've never studied any sutras, nor do I refer to any sutras. I make jokes only. [more laughter]

David: People in the West are being continuously bombarded with spiritual advise. All kinds of groups and teachers are saying, "Join us and we will give you happiness." What exactly is different about your message and why should anyone believe it or listen to it?

Papaji: They advise the people to destroy themselves. And I tell them to reject those teachers and preachers. Come to me. I will give you good advice. Don't listen to anybody's advice, neither to my advice. Peep within you and listen to your own voice. What do you hear? Don't listen to any advice because any advice belongs to the past. Some advisor has read this advice from some book, or heard it from someone. So all advice belongs to the past. So there is no advice to know thy Self. So, don't listen to anybody's advice. You keep quiet. This is the best advice. I give the advice, "Keep quiet! Don't think and don't make any effort." This is my advice. And if you follow it, you have done very well for you and for everybody, for all the beings of the world.

David: So following any advice except the advice, "Be quiet" takes one away from the Self, not towards it?

Papaji: Of course, of course, it has to because it takes you to the past. Any advice that you can mention, he has heard from someone or read from some sutra. Any advice. Advisors has not shown any good results and those advisors teach you to fight, quarrel with the neighbours and other people who don't belong to your church. Isn't it? You follow their advice, and another teacher says, "You follow my advice." So there is a quarrel, you see.

David: Papaji, you have often said that a strong desire for enlightenment is necessary. Are any other qualifications required?

Papaji: I don't think this is is a qualification. It rises from within, somewhere in a rare one. It rises from within and dances on the bosom of the freedom itself, enjoys for sometime, plays and then settles down. This is the desire. because when the desire arises for any object you are happy to meet the object. But this freedom is neither an object nor subject. It arises from the same Source, plays on the same Source, always, and settles down in this Source. There is no problem with the rise and fall. So it is the same thing, whether it arises or not. People who have got the desire for something else, they only call it, "the desire for freedom will arise." I don't feel that this will arise at all. I don't know if any desire for freedom arose in me. I don't think so. It was already there, you see. From childhood it was there.

David: You say that a strong desire for enlightenment is necessary and at the same time you are also telling everyone to "Be quiet!" How can these two co-exist together? Can one have a strong desire for freedom and at the same time have an absolutely quiet mind?

Papaji: It's not the strength and weakness of the desire. It is your weakness and strength, how you are holding it. And you have something else to do at the same time, therefore you are looking at some other desires also. Therefore, that is the strength of the other desires. So, if you check those desires, which are stronger or which are weaker, you check both desires – weaker desire and stronger desire – this alone will remain as it is, you see.

David: Do we need to believe in anything, Papaji? Do we, for example, have to believe that the Guru's words are correct? Do we we have to believe that we can attain freedom? Do we have to believe, "I am already free"? What is the minimum number of things that we have to believe in?

Papaji: Yes, of course, you need faith. Faith in your own Self. Faith that "I am free." If you at all want to believe in faith, this is the best faith you can have. "I am already free." When you can have the faith that "I am suffering, I am bound", why not to have the best faith, that "I am free." What difference does it make?

David: So if one has the absolute conviction that "I am free", then, sooner or later, that conviction will mature into an experience. Is that what you are saying?

Papaji: Not the experience, not the experience. Experience is with something else. This desire will vanish, this desire will vanish itself. This desire for freedom will vanish. Knowing it that it is freedom itself. But since you were engaged in other desires, they have left you. So it remained what it was.

David: Papaji, I heard you so on numerable occasions that enlightenment is something which is very easy to discover, and yet at the same time I have also heard you say, also on numerable occasions, that the number of people on this planet who have fully woken up to their own reality can be counted on one's fingers. If it is such and easy thing to discover, why to so few succeed?

Papaji: It's so easy because you have not to work for it. It is easy because you have not to go anywhere, you have not to go anywhere. You have stay quiet, therefore it is very easy. To attain freedom is very easy, but it becomes difficult, the people say it's difficult because they are otherwise engaged. So to give up their attachments to other things is difficult, not the freedom. Freedom is not difficult. To disengage yourself from other attachments may be difficult. That you have to decide, once upon a time, now or next life.

David: In order to succeed, Papaji, is it necessary to have a master who he himself is spiritually realised?

Papaji: Absolutely! Absolutely! Otherwise, how to know that you are on the right track?

David: Many people in the West, Papaji, have spent a long, long time looking for a realised master. What advice can you give them? How would advise them to conduct a search for a fully enlightened being?

Papaji: They cannot find. They cannot find. A true master cannot be seen by the eyes. He cannot be seen by the eyes, therefore if they try to see by their senses, they can't make a good judgement because master is beyond the senses and beyond any judgement.

When you want to be free, this freedom itself is there, which you need. But you do not depend on the freedom itself and you don't understand the language of freedom, the language of Emptiness, the language of love, because you have sold yourself to other objects. You don't understand this thing. So if you are very, intensely in want of this thing for freedom and you don't understand, so this freedom, out of compassion, takes a physical form to speak to you in your own tongue so that you understand what it is freedom.

And then it teaches that "I am your own Self." And then it enters your own Self and becomes one. This is the role of the teacher, to point out to you, "I am your Self. I am That itself." This is the role of the teacher. For sometime It becomes a teacher to just apprise you of the fact that you are That. Because you don't listen, therefore He becomes a teacher. That becomes a teacher to tell you, "You are That itself." And then you see that teacher and you is one.

David: Papaji, Ramana Maharshi agreed with you in that we have no capacity to determine who is and who is not enlightened, but at the same time he did say that there were two useful clues which one should look for when one was trying to determine who was enlightened and who was not. He said that if we meet someone who deals with everyone around him with full equality and if we feel peace in his presence, then we may take these two signs to be legitimate indications that the man may be enlightened. Do you agree with this?

Papaji: Of course I absolutely agree. So you need not ask a question because you would be misled by the statement or talks of the teachers. You would be misled. And if you feel that your mind is quiet and you feel some kind of happiness and peace – that can be the outer symptoms of a teacher. And only those people who are intensely devoted to freedom, they can only sense it, not others. So when you go to a teacher, you keep quiet, you need not give any question. Don't expect any answer. Just see, sit quiet and feel if your mind is quiet or not. If it is quiet then this is the man who can teach you. This is the man who is worth staying near.

David: Papaji, you are telling people to sit in satsang with a realised master. When the Guru dies and physical satsang with him is no longer possible, what is the disciple to do next?

Papaji: If he is a disciple, he will not agree that the master dies. The master was not the body. The body dies. But the master never was a body. All the bodies will die. So the death of the body doesn't matter for the disciple. Master is something else. And that master is always seated within in the Heart of the disciple. So he doesn't need anything else, he knows perfectly well, "I don't miss my master. He is here and now, always with me." So this is the relationship between the master and the disciple.

David: So if the disciple has the attitude that, "The Guru is not the body which just died, he is my own Self", then with that attitude, if he is not already realised, he can realise the Self after the master's death?

Papaji: He should not need, his work is done. Why should he look for another thing? Why should he look? To look for, you need a body and a mind. So when the master died, he took away along with him his body and mind. That was the teacher. Any teacher who dies, if he has not taken away his body and mind, that teacher is not to be accepted.

David: Papaji, can you please describe your own enlightenment for us? In particular, can you tell us what role your own master, Ramana Maharshi, played in it?

Papaji: It's a long story.

David: Will you tell a short version?

Papaji: It's a long story. How to begin? From childhood, but I can start from when I entered the ashram. I had entered the ashram and then all was quiet. All was quiet. This man is quiet, the incarnation of silence itself. Not speaking to anyone. But then it was a tremendous silence. I never saw anybody so silent. So the people who go there, their minds didn't enter the hall. He sits quiet and silence was there.

So what he taught was to, "Keep quiet, keep quiet", but many people didn't understand. He was speaking simply, but no one still has understood what he was saying. He would say how to be free, how to get enlightenment. Sometime he would say that, "You need Grace." But most of the time he said in Tamil, "Summa iru" which means, "Keep quiet". But now people do not understand the meaning of this, but it struck me, the meaning.

"Summa iru" later on I asked for, and then he asked me what are you doing? You don't do, but I kept "Summa iru" means "Keep quiet". I use this word often. The best teaching is "Keep quiet". And if it is very strong and comes from that quietness itself with authority, immediately it works, you see. It has to work. It must come from an authority. If any mans says "Keep quiet", it will not work. It will not work.

David: Can you tell us exactly what happened on the day you finally got it when you sat with Ramana Maharshi? What exactly happened?

Papaji: I was a devotee of Krishna from childhood, so that Krishna was even manifesting in physical form. I could see with the senses as I see other things. So much attached. After spending some four days in Adi Annamalai, on the other side of the mountain, Arunachala, then the Maharshi asked me where I had been and I said, "On the other side, staying by myself and playing with Krishna."

"Oh, very good. You have been playing with Krishna!"

"Yes sir, I have been playing with Krishna. He is my friend."

"Do you see him now?"

"No sir, I don't."

So he said, "What appears and disappears is not real, is not real. The seer remained. You saw him, he disappeared. You remained, the same seer. Now you are here also, the seer remained. Now, find out who the seer is."

So it was a word only. It was a word, but then it struck me. I became the seer. I became the seer.

So whatever word, I often say in satsang also, "Whatever you hear, don't hold the word, but go to the root of the word. Then instantly you will get it." When you say the word "freedom", for example, the desire for freedom, you immediately go to freedom itself. And when someone speaks about some other object, "Let us go to lunch", you speak of food. So you are one with the food. Only why have trouble with the freedom?

When we speak of freedom, we must be one with freedom, smell freedom, enjoy freedom. But this doesn't happen. For other things, everything else, we understand that the word takes us to that place.



 

David: Many people in the West, Papaji, will have done some form of meditation. Many of them will have practised very intensively for many, many years. I have heard you say on many occasions that doing mediation will not bring about enlightenment. Can you please explain why you think this is so?

Papaji: First of all, meditation is just to fatigue your body and mind so that you get fed up and find that there maybe something else. So he will be in search of a teacher and he will not tell him to meditate. He will tell him some unique method. He will tell him to, "Keep quiet". He will not tell him to do anything. Doing and not doing is not the work of a teacher. It is the for the preachers to say, "You have to do this and you have not to do this thing." Teacher has no teaching, no do's and no don'ts. He tells you, "Keep quiet", that's all. There can be nothing else that a teacher can say.

This is going to work. This is the best teaching that a teacher could give. If you listen to him, as I was saying, if he says, "Keep quiet", not only do you hear but you become quietness. What is the trouble?

You see in satsang, listening also, when I tell them, "Enquire, investigate, ask "Who am I?"", and they say, "We can't do it, we can't do it. We have been doing but we are in trouble, in tension, headaches." So they are otherwise engaged. So therefore, some rare one gets it. I do not know why. I cannot give you anything on my own, why it is not working.

If you keep quiet, you will fall in love with this. After all, everybody needs happiness and peace, whatever they are doing. There can be no happiness, no peace, no love, no beauty anywhere else, in any other object except this, here and now. Therefore, you don't need any meditation. Because you need mind to meditate. You need mind to meditate, therefore the result of any process has to be mental. Then you need body, such and such posture, hands to planted this way, mudra to be kept this way. So it is going to be physical. So any physical activity gives you physical results, mental results. Any good idea that attracts you, it sounds good and you follow it, that could be mental or intellectual ideas, then the result will be intellectual. So, shun all these ideas, physical, mental also spiritual also. so if you get rid of all the notions that you have heard and ideas, then you are Emptiness Itself.

David: Many people have tried to be quiet, to be still and they haven't succeeded. What are they doing wrong?

Papaji: Give up the intention to keep quiet. If they can't keep quiet, then give up the intention to keep quiet. Then what will happen?

David: You often ask people to ask themselves, "Who am I?". Why does this work when everything else fails?

Papaji: Because this is not a method. This is not a method. Other methods are clipping the branches, but this is striking at the root, the root of the mind, not the branches. Branches will grow again. So this is striking at the root, uprooting the mind itself. This enquiry uproots the mind, when you enquire, "Who am I?". So it strikes at the root of the mind. There's no mind at all with this enquiry.

"I" is the mind and now you are questioning, "I" is questioning to "I" itself. No one has ever questioned, "Who am I? Who are you? Who is he? Who is she?" "Who am I?", no one ever has questioned. Therefore, it is the first time one has asked, and it is striking at the root of all creation, not the person. It is striking at the root of the creation, then there will be no creation at all and no creator, also, and no beings also. It strikes at that depth.

David: Many people have asked themselves "Who am I?" and didn't get the right answer. Mind still remained. Should they keep on asking till they get the right answer?

Papaji: No, only once. Only once. It has struck at the right place. It has struck there at the right point when you say, "Who am I?". Don't expect any answer. He must get rid of the expectation or intention for any answer. So therefore, this question is not to get any answer. This question is like this, like a river merging into the ocean. So it doesn't go into the ocean to remain as a river. It has merged now, like this enquiry, "Who am I?" is merging into the divinity, Self, Emptiness Itself. So he has to keep quiet and see what happens.

But after this enquiry he must not wait for the answer. So if he has asked this question, after having finished this question, that is the answer. Immediately, this question is finished, "Who am I?", after "I" it has ended. So I make a diagram and drawing also. After this, what is this after "I"? So you become That where "I" has discharged into. It has to be Emptiness.

David: Papaji, you frequently say, "Truth exalts a holy person", and you also say that a holy person is one whose mind is spotless, pure, immaculate. And yet at the same time you never ask anyone to make their minds spotless, pure or immaculate. How can Truth exalt us if we don't do anything to make our minds pure, spotless, immaculate?

Papaji: You cannot, because the mind itself is dust. So you cannot clean the dust with the dust. So if you have a mirror and it's a dusty mirror and you want to clean it and you bring some kind of dust and put another layer of dust on it. This is cleaning the mind, adding another dust. So anything you do, any other method, you want to clean the mind with some yoga or with some meditation or whatever it is. So it putting more dust on the mind. So what I say, "Keep quiet", is removing the mirror itself, so that no dust can alight anywhere. This is holiness, what I meant, so that the Truth exalts the holiness. And now you are holy. Remove the mirror. If you have a mirror, your face will be reflected. So this is a spot. With this spot you are not holy. It's a reflection. So how to remove the reflection? If you throw away the mirror, then this reflection will return back to your original face. So if you throw away the mind for one second, just one second, this thought of holiness will reveal itself, merge back into the holiness. Therefore, Truth exalts a holy person. Therefore, you have to be holy. How to be holy? Remove the mirror, remove all reflections which you were seeing in the objects, which is the dust.

David: To the people who are watching this program, Papaji, can you tell them what is preventing them from being aware of who they are, right now, at this instant while they are watching?

Papaji: They may not be watching me. They may be watching something else. You know what they are saying. [laughter] I would rather that you don't watch me, you watch something else now.

David: Most people, Papaji, they think that enlightenment is something which can be achieved after a long or arduous preparation. What is wrong with this belief?

Papaji: This is wrong from the first instant [laughter] This is a belief. Why should they believe? Any belief is wrong. Why should you believe? Do you need to believe that you are David Godman? You are very sure about it? Why ask Madhukar, "Please tell me where is David Godman. He was living in this house."?

He will say, "There you are and this is your place." How did you get lost on the way? You must have gone with someone else. So we go generally with someone else, some other idea, some other thing. And we are stuck with these things and forget that we have to return home. Yes.

David: I think that this is a major problem in the West, Papaji. People will not be convinced that they are ready for realisation right now. They all think they have to do something.

Papaji: Of course. Doing. That's what I hear. Therefore, all the yoga teachers are very successful in the West. Yoga teachers. I find even yoga centres in small villages. There are five thousand yoga teachers in Europe. I have met some. they are yoga teachers and they are doing very well. I said, "What are you teaching?"

They say, "How to keep young up to ninety years old." That's what their aim is and yoga can fulfil this. Yoga is generally, there are many books of yoga them and you can see them in the book stalls on the foot paths. Yoga for Sex – you must have seen. So yoga is mostly to upkeep the body, the physical body to keep well.

David: Papaji, many people experience, what they call, happiness as a result of indulging in physical pleasures. What is the difference between the happiness they experience and the happiness which you know to be your own nature? Is there is difference?

Papaji: Happiness with the...?

David: Many people experience, what they call, happiness as a result of indulging in physical pleasures. What is the difference between the happiness they experience and the happiness which you know to be your own Self? Is there is difference?

Papaji: No, no. To be your own Self is the only happiness. All other forms of happiness are to fatigue yourself so that you can find out that this is not happiness. Because after that, if you again repeat that same process, it means that place or thing has not given you happiness, therefore it wants to be repeated.

David: I'm not talking about processes, Papaji, I'm talking about the result. If I am suddenly very, very happy as a result of doing something, is my happiness the same as your happiness, or is it different?

Papaji: Happiness is One. Happiness is One, but when you attribute it to something which is not abiding, then it is different. "Your" happiness, when you say "my" happiness and "your" happiness, then it is not that happiness which I point at. I point at just happiness, not "my" happiness and not "your" happiness. And the difference only is that you are using "my" and "your". If you remove "you" and "me", then there is no difference.

David: What about states such as ecstasy and bliss? Are they mind experiences or are they from the Self?

Papaji: Ecstasy is a state of mind. For some time it will stay and then it will again dwindle and return back. Many people get into ecstatic states listen to a poem, to poetry, some singing songs, or some with other things, they get into ecstasy, but it goes away. it depends upon the circumstances.

But bliss, when you have bliss, it is not That also. not even bliss, but bliss can be attributed to dawn. Before the sunrise, there is a dawn, and you know very well that now sun will arise. Sun is not yet there but something shows – now it is dawn. So when you feel some bliss and you are not attributing it to something else, you are now focused. Seeing the dawn, now it is the east side, sun will rise. So your focusing is entirely on the east, on one particular point where you see the dawn, because dawn is not in the west. Therefore, when the bliss is coming, you go on focusing on the bliss and so that you become one with the bliss. And then this bliss also rejected. This also is a mental state.

David: Do we have to reject it consciously or will it happen automatically?

Papaji: It will happen automatically.

David: Because some people say that bliss is an obstacle to realisation and that the final experience is peace and stillness.

Papaji: This comes under yoga. In some yoga they mention bliss. This is one of the koshas – physical, then sensual, then mental, then intellectual and then blissful. Sheaths they call it, koshas. First there is annamaya kosha, then pranamaya kosha, manomaya kosha, vijnanamaya kosha and finally anandamaya kosha. These are the walls and then if you reject these, you are not to hold on to bliss, also. And if you can reject and don't get attached to this thing one by one, remove the physical body, remove the mental body, remove the prana body, and remove the intellectual body also. When the intellect is working, you stop the intellect, then bliss will come. Bliss will come when the intellect is not working. Even if bliss comes, don't get attached. Most yogis get attached to this thing. This is from the yoga method. Yoga method, they describe koshas. And then you get attached to this last kosha, but don't get attached permanently. Don't give up, stay quiet, and then it will become That. And mind is now absorbing the bliss, and mind is now becoming bliss. Now, it is not for the bliss to be rejected. Now, from the other side, beyond mind, no-mind, freedom itself is coming to receive you and embrace you. So then only no one can reject the bliss.

So you have done very well if you feel the bliss, bliss of Atman [bliss of the Self], is called Atmananda. Then it will take the form of Atman itself. Then everything has gone and even that is not final somehow. "No-mind" is now still alive. It is related to mind still.


So fathomless this is. Then your work begins here, which is going to be very beautiful work. Now, before you have done well, and your task is over. Now this is the task of beyond. Now beyond is taking hold of you and revealing itself more and more, every moment, a different beauty, a different love, a different form even. Different form so that you are always engaged with It and It is always engaged with It. So That, you can not get rid of, even if the body leaves. So That can be described as the Ultimate, or "Ultimateness".

David: Papaji, no-mind, silent or still mind and dead mind, what is the difference between them?

Papaji: Silent mind is to temporarily keep quiet. Simply the suppression of the objects in the mind. You keep quiet many times. Somebody wants something from you and you tell him, "I don't have" or you are not willing to give. There is silence for some time. A still mind, stillness of mind is also temporary. For some meditation, concentration for a long time will result in a still mind. When you're mind is still like the flame of the candle, when again the breeze will come, the candle will again flicker out. If any other thought will come again, the stillness will be washed away, with the wind of the thought.

Now no-mind, I am hearing this question for the first time. It has never been asked to me by any person from India or from the West. It has never been asked so I am very happy. For the first time to deal with this question.

So no-mind. First of all, to speak about no-mind, we have to see what is mind. So mind is something – we'll start from consciousness. When the consciousness wants to know itself, about itself, "Who am I?" As you are there, yet you need a mirror sometimes to appreciate your make-up. You want to see yourself, then the mirror will reflect.

So from there arise, in the consciousness there is a wave to know. Consciousness asking itself, to know about consciousness itself. This wave is now rising. Wave in the ocean is now rising. So that wave now becomes "I". It separates. The same consciousness, it has now separated from the consciousness as "I". So when our mind is left alone, "I" is all this manifestation, what you see is "I" only. "I" must be there when you see a tree, when you see a mountain, a river, men, animals. This is "I" only. You need "I".

So this "I" has now rejected everything. "I" alone is there. It cannot return or go back. It has decided that this is the desire for freedom – it wants to return to it's original place. So the desire to go back is no more there. So this "I" which arises from the consciousness is now returning to consciousness and this decision has become no-mind now. "I" has gone and this "I" was mind. And this "I" is now rejected. That, in-between "I" and consciousness, this in-between is called no-mind. This in-between will merge into consciousness itself and the in-between will become consciousness itself.

As we have this cup [picking up a cup from the table]. And inside there is ether, space. On the outside there is also space. We call it "inner space" and this is "outer space". Why? Because this form is called "cup" – name, form, length, breadth, diameter. So when this name and form is removed, this "inner" ether and this mahat, which means "greater" ether, become One. They were always One. This is freedom.

There was trouble because there was "inside" and "outside". So from this point of view, the "inner" space was separate from the "outer" space. Why? Because of name and form, and this name and form is "I". When this "I" goes, this wall is removed and This becomes This. Still remembrance will be there. Remembrance of no-mind is there because you are coming from mind. So now I have no-mind. So gradually, slowly, for a long time, how it happens, I do not know, this no-mind merges back into beyond. So now, you no-mind to work on your own accord. You are simply being graced and picked up and obey what It is doing. You are not doing anything, doership is gone. Mind is no longer and all these other functions of the mind are no longer there. So you stay this time for a stipulated period as has been chartered early. This life will stay for the rest of the time.

And some people cannot stand the shock of freedom for more than twenty-one days, that is stated in the sacred books. For more than twenty-one days, they can't stand this happiness. If some middle-class man wins a Derby Lottery for one billion dollars, he doesn't know what to do. some people have heart attacks. So much happiness, so this happiness takes away the body itself, but He is liberated, it doesn't matter, now or tomorrow. Body is not in question, but some people can live only to benefit other people. So this benefit is not coming from some person. Going back to your previous question, it is coming direct from consciousness and that person, that teacher knows that it is not "me". "I am simply picked up to speak and it is not "me" who is speaking." If it knows that "someone" is speaking on Him, it is arrogance, egoistic. It will not work. So if you have that experience, then it's not your problem what you are speaking, and who has benefited and who has not benefited, who comes to you and who doesn't come to you. It remains the same.

David: Has consciousness ordered you to teach, Papaji, is that what you are saying.

Papaji: There's no "you". "You" and "she" has become one. I cannot say if "she" has ordered "me".

David: But some power is compelling you to give satsang, yes?

Papaji: Some power is like this thing: now I want to drink water so I say, "Poonjaji, pick up the glass." Yes sir, I've picked it up. "Put it in the mouth." I put it in the mouth. "Now drink it." I drink it. It's like this thing. [laughter] What difference is there. Now I have not commanded the hand. It's all me, you see. People who are benefited and not "others". Hand is my own, my stomach is my own and the requirement for water is my own. Who are the others? Who is other?

Who is, first of all, ignorant? I don't believe. Who wants to be free? I don't believe. Who is not free? I don't believe. So they are joking. They are saying "I am in trouble. I am bound." So I am also joking. I say "You are not bound, you are free."

"It takes a long time?"

"No, no. Now itself."

All of this is a joke, so I take it as a joke, you see. [laughter] "I am bound", is it not a joke because they don't show me the chains, nor the fetters, nor the prison. What kind of jail is it? They simply say. So it's a big joke and I enjoy this joke. [laughter]

David: So when you look at people in satsang, Papaji, you don't see unenlightened people at all, you only see enlightened people? Is that what you are trying to tell me?

Papaji: [long pause] Oh, it's a difficult question, but I have to answer it because I answer all questions. First of all, I absorb them all and give them a seat in my Heart, in my Heart. As the lover gives a seat to the beloved in his Heart, always seated. So I open here. "You all sit in my Heart and we will speak together. You are not apart from me, you are within the Heart. You are in my Heart. let us speak." We speak just like on the stage. We speak like this.

David: Grace is clearly flowing during your satsangs, Papaji. Do you project it consciously, does it flow from you or through you, or is it simply there all the time?

Papaji: From Grace only. Grace has to come from Grace, no? Wave has to come from the ocean. Grace has to come from Grace, the ocean of Grace.

David: It seems to flow very strongly in your proximity, though.

Papaji: Hm?

David: It seems to flow very strongly in your proximity.

Papaji: I don't know. [laughter]

David: I've heard you say Papaji, that "I know many different tricks to wake people up. If one doesn't work, then I use another."

Papaji: Yes.

David: What are these tricks and how do you use them?

Papaji: One trick is "Keep quiet!" "Keep quiet!" Second trick is, "Do not think at all." Third trick is, "Don't activate your mind." Fourth trick is, "You come to me and I will teach you yoga and I will show you shirshasana." You stand infront of me and I will tell you, "You stay here, head down, feet up, this is called shirshasana." I know it so I'll show them. And then ask me, "I want freedom." And then, at that time, in that posture, I will tell you, I will tell you how to gain freedom. I will say, "Keep quiet!" [laughter] Like this, you keep quiet. So at that time they will listen, because now they are in trouble. So when everybody is troubled so much with the enjoyment of the senses, thy come to me. And now, this man is in trouble because he is upside down. Then he will come and he will listen to me. And some people who are upside down, they come to me and it works this way. So, I know many tricks and I have used them in the West also.

If straight away, somebody comes... mostly, mostly there are good people who are coming to Lucknow. I have no problem with them. Here there are people from all over the world, who are coming for the first time to India, and to Lucknow. And I am very happy with them. And they listen to me, what I say to them. They listen to me as a father, as one of the elders, one of their brothers, who gives them good, good advice, so that they don't suffer from any pain – physical, mental or any kind of pain. So I give them this trick. And most people like it very well because they have got nothing to do now and simply get happiness and peace.

Who doesn't want happiness? Who doesn't want peace? Who doesn't want love? Who doesn't want beauty? Everybody is interested, so they listen to me. And I am happy that everyone is benefited. And they return to their respective countries as ambassadors from this city of Lucknow. And they send their friends. And then they they go and they send others, so therefore thousands of people have come here. And there is no complaint about it because there are no charges, and there is no ashram, there is no appeal for funds. I am living in my own house. I belong to this place. For fifty years I have been living here. Some years I have spent abroad, travelling the world, and now my old age has compelled me to stay on here. That's why you are here. Otherwise, I would be going to your doors. I didn't trouble anyone, you see. So now people are coming here and I am very happy that some message of peace is being spread, which we need very badly.

Two thousand six hundreds years ago it happened and it was India who sent the messengers of peace all over the world, in the form of Mahendra and Mitra. The Emperor Ashoka's own son and daughter, and other people have gone. They went to China, Japan and Korea and other countries, right from Burma, including Afghanistan. So there was tremendous peace in the world. So let us resolve again to send this message of peace, again from the same place. Buddha also belonged to this state. I am very happy that he belonged to this state. And again the message is being sent from this holy state. So this is all, you can have peace in the world and you can enlighten yourself. And this enlightenment itself is the message.

When you go back you may speak or you may keep quiet. It will work. Your friends will ask you, "What happened?", and you keep quiet. A these final teachings,gain they will ask you. Just keep quiet, that's all you need to do.

David: Papaji, many people have heard you say, "I have not given my final teachings to anyone." What are these final teachings and why are you not giving them out?

Papaji: They are not worthy of them. Nobody is worthy to receive it now. Because according to my experience, everybody has proved arrogant and egotistic. With the result that many people are suffering. Many people are suffering. Now I am making another trial, just recently. I will see what happens.

Therefore, I don't think anybody is worthy to receive it. You have to prove holiness to be worthy.

Instead of helping people, why should you trouble people first of all? This is arrogance. I have seen that many people are troubled. When I sent, I only sent a message, only sent a message and the messenger becomes king. King sends a messenger for some reason to another state. So I sent this message but this messenger has become the king himself. Yes, I have seen in many cases. What to do them? So, unworthiness, or I am too generous. I do not read people enough. Either it should be my mistake, because I think that everybody is good. Therefore, I speak the Truth, but the Truth will reject them, you see. Only a holy person can receive this, and they have to be worthy to receive the teaching and this worthiness will only be enabling you to receive the Truth, otherwise it will enter into the head, intellectually. It's enough for the West to understand intellectually. They would be very happy. That's all the West wants to know through intellect. But who knows "beyond"? There is something "beyond". Therefore everybody says, "I don't understand, I don't understand." So then I say, "You don't need to understand at all."

There was one man, my good friend in Paris. A Krishnamutist, a follower of Krishnamurti for 35 years. He was travelling wherever Krishnamurti went – Australia, New Zealand, Switzerland and England. Wherever he was going, he was travelling and he studied all the books, up to date, he has studied this thing.

So somehow, he came o see me also, in Saanen, and he was saying, "I don't understand."

"You have not to understand. Certain things are not to be understood. You have to be it."

He said, "No, you have to understand. And Krishnamurti, I also don't understand."

"Krishnamurti", I said, "you need not understand him also."

"Because I am at point A and Krishnamurti is at point B and then when I shift from A and go to B, then he shifts to C. When I go to B he goes to C. I don't even understand Krishnaji. And now, I am in contact with Poonjaji."

So there was a lot of talk about Poonjaji and Krishnaji, even in Saanen. So their viewpoint was differing. Some said that "Poonjaji speaks like Krishnaji. And he removes the concepts, he also removes he concepts of the mind." They say, "Only unless you empty the pot, you cannot be enlightened, and Poonjaji also says this."

So one man who had listened and he was a lecturer on behalf of Krishnaji. He said, "No, no, there is a lot difference between Krishnaji and Poonjaji. That difference is that Krishnaji removes the pot and makes it empty and Poonjaji breaks the pot itself."

So that is the difference, and that you cannot understand. You can understand only when the cup is empty or when it is full, but when the cup does not exist, what are you going to understand? So what I say is, "The mind itself does not exist, so you don't need to understand." Immediately, you have to see and feel, what It is when I speak.

Mind itself is only a notion, only a notion. Get rid of this notion. Mind is past, also. Get rid of the past and come to the present and then I will tell you what to do next. Come at least to the present.

David: Many people who attend your satsangs, Papaji, have waking up or enlightenment experiences, but after a few weeks or a few months they come back and say, "I lost it." What is happening there?

Papaji: Again, this is unworthiness.

David: Most of the time you blame these people for losing it. You say, "It's your fault."

Papaji: Yes, yes. They lost it because they have not taken care of it, they have not taken care of it. I say to them, "When I give you a diamond, it's enough for you, for the whole of this, the whole of this life. You take care of it or sell it. Sell it in Washington or on Wall Street. You will get 30 billion dollars for this thing. This is a diamond, quite a new diamond. Sell it. 30 billions dollars is enough for you. You can do anything throughout your life. And then when you go to the fish market, buy fish and hand over this thing diamond." And the fishwoman also doesn't know what this is. She uses it's weight on the scale. So it should not be passed onto unworthy people. And they misuse it. I cannot differentiate between all those people who come, I tell them the Truth straight away, and they are happy also. But then they misuse it.

Again they come back and say, "My girlfriend separated from me. And then I phoned her and she came. So I am happy. So this must be the result of freedom. And then when I went back, again she left me. Again, I am in trouble." So all those people tell me these stories.

David: But, Papaji, when people leave you, you never tell them, "Take care of this diamond I've given you. Look after it." You only blame them when they come back for having lost it.

Papaji: No, not all of them. Some are very beautiful people and they write to me. "I am keeping it. This precious gift, I am still keeping. But not only keeping it, I am distributing it to others also. And even after distributing, I see that the same amount is with me. It doesn't decrease. What a gift you have given me!" Not all of them lose it. But all of them will not be benefited, but I want that everybody should be benefited by this thing. But, the results here are very good because I look at the other ashrams also and I know their results. But here, the results which are happening to someone somehow are quite satisfactory. I am very satisfied with this thing.

David: One final question, Papaji. All your life you have been trying to express, unsuccessfully, your own inner experience. Please make one more attempt for us. Who are you? What are you? What is your deepest and innermost experience of your own Self?

Papaji: A very easy reply is, "I am your own Self." I am your own Self, and this is the Truth. How can it be that I am myself only? I am your own Self and the Self of all the beings that exist and that have to exist.

David: Thank-you very much, Papaji.

Papaji: Thank-you Mr Godman, Mr David. Thank-you. Thank-you everybody.

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